Why isn't Socialism/Communism as frowned upon as Fascism?

[Ceannairceach]

Libertarian socialists are the majority, actually, so far as "people who identify as libertarian (x)" goes. Another mark against you knowing what you're talking about. Libertarianism predates the American Libertarian Party by at least a century.

Modern Libertarianism has nothing to do with 19th Century Libertarianism (which was socialism). In fact, back then what we call Libertarianism would instead be called Liberalism, and today is still called Classical Liberalism. Because people who ascribe to the ideals of the LP, for the most part (there are some lefties and some crazies) ascribe to the ideals of the Liberalism that Jefferson, Paine, and Henry would espouse.

Yes, I believe that's what I said, in fewer words.

[The Persian Socialist Federation]

It is frowned upon. Have you been through a western history class in North America?

[Sanctissima]

Libertarian Socialism...a minority of a minority...they absolutley do not make up the bulk of Antifa and they are not in anyway related to groups that support ideas like those of the Libertarian Party.

Libertarian socialists are the majority, actually, so far as "people who identify as libertarian (x)" goes. Another mark against you knowing what you're talking about. Libertarianism predates the American Libertarian Party by at least a century.

The former... really isn't the case anymore, at all.

Libertarian Socialists have been a dying breed for quite some time now, and have most definitely been eclipsed by their non-Socialist counterparts.

[Kavagrad]

It is frowned upon. Have you been through a western history class in North America?

The far-right love to complain about the "commies" in the education system, whenever the alternative is accepting that their views aren't compatible with the slightest critical thinking.

[Uxupox]

It is frowned upon. Have you been through a western history class in North America?

The far-right love to complain about the "commies" in the education system, whenever the alternative is accepting that their views aren't compatible with the slightest critical thinking.

One could say the same about communism.

[Ceannairceach]

Libertarian socialists are the majority, actually, so far as "people who identify as libertarian (x)" goes. Another mark against you knowing what you're talking about. Libertarianism predates the American Libertarian Party by at least a century.

The former... really isn't the case anymore, at all.

Libertarian Socialists have been a dying breed for quite some time now, and have most definitely been eclipsed by their non-Socialist counterparts.

I disagree entirely. Though it might not be represented by any major organizations, libertarian socialism is a wide umbrella, and I dare say most American socialists are some flavor of it or another, be they in the DSA or S.Alt. Certainly of comparable numbers to the Libertarian Party, certainly. EDIT: And that's forgetting the rejuvenation they've experienced with the successes of Democratic Confederalism in Rojava.

[Uxupox]

Libertarian socialists are the majority, actually, so far as "people who identify as libertarian (x)" goes. Another mark against you knowing what you're talking about. Libertarianism predates the American Libertarian Party by at least a century.

The former... really isn't the case anymore, at all.

Libertarian Socialists have been a dying breed for quite some time now, and have most definitely been eclipsed by their non-Socialist counterparts.

Pretty much.

[The Persian Socialist Federation]

It is frowned upon. Have you been through a western history class in North America?

The far-right love to complain about the "commies" in the education system, whenever the alternative is accepting that their views aren't compatible with the slightest critical thinking.

It tends to be the thought that somehow Marxists are invading due to a Marxist viewpoint that is only barely present in some college and university professors. This doesn't even occur in fields where Marxism is much more applicable such as Economics or History.

[Uxupox]

The former... really isn't the case anymore, at all.

Libertarian Socialists have been a dying breed for quite some time now, and have most definitely been eclipsed by their non-Socialist counterparts.

I disagree entirely. Though it might not be represented by any major organizations, libertarian socialism is a wide umbrella, and I dare say most American socialists are some flavor of it or another, be they in the DSA or S.Alt. Certainly of comparable numbers to the Libertarian Party, certainly. EDIT: And that's forgetting the rejuvenation they've experienced with the successes of Democratic Confederalism in Rojava.

Where is that data?

[Kavagrad]

The far-right love to complain about the "commies" in the education system, whenever the alternative is accepting that their views aren't compatible with the slightest critical thinking.

One could say the same about communism.

Ouch. Should've expected that one.

[Ceannairceach]

I disagree entirely. Though it might not be represented by any major organizations, libertarian socialism is a wide umbrella, and I dare say most American socialists are some flavor of it or another, be they in the DSA or S.Alt. Certainly of comparable numbers to the Libertarian Party, certainly. EDIT: And that's forgetting the rejuvenation they've experienced with the successes of Democratic Confederalism in Rojava.

Where is that data?

How can you expect me to find data on something like that? It's an opinion, a gamble, even.

[War Gears]

Socialism is an inherently internationalist ideology

Nope, it's not. Marxism and anarchism do not equal socialism. Numerous scholars such as Sternhell have argued that Fascism was a merger of integral nationalism with revolutionary syndicalism, inheriting most of it's philosophy from the latter.

if you can even call national syndicalism that

It'd not be hard to; Sorel, Pannunzio, and De Ambris were all popular socialists who contributed to the development of national syndicalism. Fascism in 1919 was openly and avowedly socialist, with articles published in Il Popolo D'Italia with the various socialist ideologues ranked (Proudhon and Bakunin at the top with Marx on the bottom).

[Sanctissima]

The former... really isn't the case anymore, at all.

Libertarian Socialists have been a dying breed for quite some time now, and have most definitely been eclipsed by their non-Socialist counterparts.

I disagree entirely. Though it might not be represented by any major organizations, libertarian socialism is a wide umbrella, and I dare say most American socialists are some flavor of it or another, be they in the DSA or S.Alt. Certainly of comparable numbers to the Libertarian Party, certainly. EDIT: And that's forgetting the rejuvenation they've experienced with the successes of Democratic Confederalism in Rojava.

I sincerely doubt that, especially given how membership in American Communist and Socialist parties have dwindled to practically nothing. Unless you lump all the Social Democrats and gullible college students who voted Sanders into the category of "libertarian Socialists", I really don't see how their numbers can even hold a candle to that of other libertarians.

[Uxupox]

Where is that data?

How can you expect me to find data on something like that? It's an opinion, a gamble, even.

Well the libertarian party actually registered voters and so we can count on those numbers. While the DSA only has 15.99 % of the actual registered voter count of the libertarian party which is no way a comparable number.

[Ceannairceach]

I disagree entirely. Though it might not be represented by any major organizations, libertarian socialism is a wide umbrella, and I dare say most American socialists are some flavor of it or another, be they in the DSA or S.Alt. Certainly of comparable numbers to the Libertarian Party, certainly. EDIT: And that's forgetting the rejuvenation they've experienced with the successes of Democratic Confederalism in Rojava.

I sincerely doubt that, especially given how membership in American Communist and Socialist parties have dwindled to practically nothing. Unless you lump all the Social Democrats and gullible college students who voted Sanders into the category of "libertarian Socialists", I really don't see how their numbers can even hold a candle to that of other libertarians.

I wasn't presuming that they outnumbered them in America alone. Internationally, libertarianism still does not carry right-wing connotations, and those few people I've met who identify as such are leftists as well.

[War Gears]

Nationalistic elements within the socialist movement have always been a small minority, and, I'd argue, heretical to the socialist norm.

That's certainly not true for socialism in Asian countries. There were tons of socialists who combined nationalism (Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Ikki Kita being three of the most influential) often being the most successful at getting their message across.

[Ceannairceach]

How can you expect me to find data on something like that? It's an opinion, a gamble, even.

Well the libertarian party actually registered voters and so we can count on those numbers. While the DSA only has 15.99 % of the actual registered voter count of the libertarian party which is no way a comparable number.

See my above post. I didn't mean to imply they outnumbered them when considering America alone. Obviously in America, the right-wing ideology has taken root and is far more popular nationally.

[Claorica]

Nationalistic elements within the socialist movement have always been a small minority, and, I'd argue, heretical to the socialist norm.

That's certainly not true for socialism in Asian countries. There were tons of socialists who combined nationalism (Ho Chi Minh, Mao, Ikki Kita being three of the most influential) often being the most successful at getting their message across.

And often (almost always) at high cost to the actual citizens.

[Sanctissima]

I sincerely doubt that, especially given how membership in American Communist and Socialist parties have dwindled to practically nothing. Unless you lump all the Social Democrats and gullible college students who voted Sanders into the category of "libertarian Socialists", I really don't see how their numbers can even hold a candle to that of other libertarians.

I wasn't presuming that they outnumbered them in America alone. Internationally, libertarianism still does not carry right-wing connotations, and those few people I've met who identify as such are leftists as well.

Even abroad, I genuinely doubt their numbers outnumber those of non-Socialist libertarians. Liberal libertarians are fairly common on their own, as are several other non-Socialist libertarian strains.

Then again, I suppose it depends how one defines libertarian socialism, since that label can theoretically cover everyone from Tolstoy to Gandhi.

[The Persian Socialist Federation]

It'd not be hard to; Sorel, Pannunzio, and De Ambris were all popular socialists who contributed to the development of national syndicalism. Fascism in 1919 was openly and avowedly socialist, with articles published in Il Popolo D'Italia with the various socialist ideologues ranked (Proudhon and Bakunin at the top with Marx on the bottom).

If they did not advocate Worker control over the means of production and worker conquest of all political power then they were not Socialist.

[Sanctissima]

If they did not advocate Worker control over the means of production and worker conquest of all political power then they were not Socialist.

Nuance is a thing y'know.

Are we to presume that only Anarcho-Capitalists are true Capitalists since everyone else argues for at least some state intervention?

[The Persian Socialist Federation]

Nuance is a thing y'know.

Are we to presume that only Anarcho-Capitalists are true Capitalists since everyone else argues for at least some state intervention?

Capitalism is simply the private ownership of Capital by an individual who uses said Capital to create profit. The state develops after the economic mode of production. This is Marxism 101

[Sanctissima]

Nuance is a thing y'know.

Are we to presume that only Anarcho-Capitalists are true Capitalists since everyone else argues for at least some state intervention?

Capitalism is simply the private ownership of Capital by an individual who uses said Capital to create profit. The state develops after the economic mode of production. This is Marxism 101

Yes yes, and Venezuela is state capitalist because there's some privatization. I'm well-aware of Marxism's many attempts to redefine everything imaginable so as to suit its own ends.

For people who actually care about real, generalized definitions though, Capitalism is a system wherein the majority of the economy is privatized, and is market-driven.

[Ceannairceach]

Capitalism is simply the private ownership of Capital by an individual who uses said Capital to create profit. The state develops after the economic mode of production. This is Marxism 101

Yes yes, and Venezuela is state capitalist because there's some privatization. I'm well-aware of Marxism's many attempts to redefine everything imaginable so as to suit its own ends.

For people who actually care about real, generalized definitions though, Capitalism is a system wherein the majority of the economy is privatized, and is market-driven.

What redefinition? It's literally always been the same. It's the refusal of others to accept that definition that causes confusion. Venezuela was called capitalist by US media when it was wealthy and prosperous, but it is socialist now that it is experiencing upheaval. Don't pretend like that's solely the fault of socialists yelling "not real socialism."

[The Persian Socialist Federation]

Yes yes, and Venezuela is state capitalist because there's some privatization. I'm well-aware of Marxism's many attempts to redefine everything imaginable so as to suit its own ends.

For people who actually care about real, generalized definitions though, Capitalism is a system wherein the majority of the economy is privatized, and is market-driven.

This would classify the Roman Slave Societies as Capitalist alongside many Markets in Feudal Europe.