NATION

PASSWORD

Why isn't Socialism/Communism as frowned upon as Fascism?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

User avatar
Claorica
Diplomat
 
Posts: 827
Founded: Aug 20, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Claorica » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:00 pm

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Claorica wrote:I'm simply saying I sympathize with the alt right just as much as I sympathize with the fascistic self-identified ancoms that are part of Antifa.

They have the right to protest, and just because some of them are Nazis doesn't mean that antifa has the right to start being violent. Nor does it mean that anything violent is somehow acceptable against them.

Last summer I went on holiday to Normandy. Quite a few Americans were violent against nazis there, and that was an extremely good thing.


Hmmm... Two countries at war (and I wouldn't bless those deaths because most of those people weren't nazis. In fact, most of the ones in Normandy were part of the SS Divisions, which by 1944 had deteriorated from the elite fighting force of the Nazi Party to being mostly young boys and elderly men.)

But back to the point.

There's a huge difference between two countries being at war (which we should've followed up by liberating the oppressed eastern countries as well, while we still had a massive arms advantage) a bunch of urbanite cowards throwing bricks through windows and hitting people with bats, hyped up about some rebellion that's never going to happen.
Pros: Localism, Subsidiarity, Distributism, Traditionalism, Conservatism, Reformed Christianity, Christian Nationalism, Ruralism, Southern Agrarianism, Regionalism, State's Rights, Gun Rights, Civic Nationalism, Monarchism, Federalism, Rerum Novarum, Christian Monarchy, Christian conservatism, Boers, Presbyterianism (PCA) Aristocracy, Catholicism
Mehs: Israel, Classical Liberalism, Mormonism (they are heretics but they also are role models), LCMS Lutherans
Antis: Palestine, Islam, Communism, South Africa, (Progressive) Liberalism, Socialism, Anarchism (of any Kind, for Anprims to Ancoms to Ancaps), Atheism, Centralized States, Unitary States, Episcopalianism, non-LCMS Lutheranism, Progressive Christianity/Christian Progressivism, Majoritarianism, "Presbyterianism" (PCUSA)

User avatar
Telconi
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 24640
Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Wed Jan 17, 2018 3:40 pm

Hurdergaryp wrote:
Claorica wrote:I'm simply saying I sympathize with the alt right just as much as I sympathize with the fascistic self-identified ancoms that are part of Antifa.

They have the right to protest, and just because some of them are Nazis doesn't mean that antifa has the right to start being violent. Nor does it mean that anything violent is somehow acceptable against them.

Last summer I went on holiday to Normandy. Quite a few Americans were violent against nazis there, and that was an extremely good thing.


Those Nazis weren't Americans...
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

User avatar
Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 922
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:57 am

Telconi wrote:
Hurdergaryp wrote:Last summer I went on holiday to Normandy. Quite a few Americans were violent against nazis there, and that was an extremely good thing.


Those Nazis weren't Americans...

Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

User avatar
Washington Resistance Army
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40537
Founded: Aug 08, 2011
Father Knows Best State

Postby Washington Resistance Army » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:06 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Those Nazis weren't Americans...

Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.


Tbqh we should go back to the good ol days when we crushed both extremes.

User avatar
Oil exporting People
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8281
Founded: Jan 31, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Oil exporting People » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:14 am

Kavagrad wrote:Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.


Follow the event chain and see the question that started it off. Further, reflect upon what you said about stomping it out and then consider what exactly that entails to your own beliefs.
National Syndicalist
“The blood of the heroes is closer to God than the ink of the philosophers and the prayers of the faithful.” - Julius Evola
Endorsing Greg "Grab 'em by the Neck" Gianforte and Brett "I Like Beer" Kavanaugh for 2020

User avatar
Halfblakistan
Diplomat
 
Posts: 811
Founded: Apr 28, 2015
New York Times Democracy

Postby Halfblakistan » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:16 am

Because socialism is awesome, and fascism is the opposite.
Officially the Cooperative Commonwealth of St. Perpetua. Early PMT socialist techno-utopia.
I don't use NS stats. For national info, check here.
My Political Compass:
Economic Left/Right: -7.13
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.95
For: Libertarian socialism, social and economic equality, ending the War on Drugs, altcoins
Against: fascism, capitalism, racism, homophobia, sexism, ableism
The Daily Pioneer:Profiles in Solidarity: Marsello Doje, Former VCR Gang Leader, Now Runs Youth Center in Kindred

The Cornerstone Sentinel:Cornerstone State Rolls Back Curfew From 20:00 to 18:00 in Bid to Curb Youth Violence

User avatar
The Greater Ohio Valley
Senator
 
Posts: 3683
Founded: Jan 19, 2013
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:41 am

Probably because fascism had more of a direct cause to the deadliest conflict in human history than socialism and communism.
Last edited by The Greater Ohio Valley on Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
27 year old pansexual H. sapien male who enjoys heavy metal and the classic PS1 Resident Evil games.

Hey, it's up to us to take out Umbrella.

8values
Political Compass

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:10 am

Claorica wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:You, regarding the question in the title. In a country where our government won't even condemn violence committed by neo-Nazis, fascism is not receiving nearly as much opposition as communism.


You know those neonazis were attacked by leftists, right? No one's supported the car guy, but the violence at the rally wouldn't have happened if the antifa fascists hadn't been there.


Oh hey gonna need sauce for that.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31423
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:16 am

Vassenor wrote:
Claorica wrote:
You know those neonazis were attacked by leftists, right? No one's supported the car guy, but the violence at the rally wouldn't have happened if the antifa fascists hadn't been there.


Oh hey gonna need sauce for that.

You genuinely need a source to say that a group of violent terrorists would not have caused violence if they had not been present?
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:17 am

Purpelia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Oh hey gonna need sauce for that.

You genuinely need a source to say that a group of violent terrorists would not have caused violence if they had not been present?


For the accusation that it started when the counter-protesters struck first, yes.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Purpelia
Post Czar
 
Posts: 31423
Founded: Oct 19, 2010
Libertarian Police State

Postby Purpelia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:35 am

Vassenor wrote:
Purpelia wrote:You genuinely need a source to say that a group of violent terrorists would not have caused violence if they had not been present?


For the accusation that it started when the counter-protesters struck first, yes.

A counter protest from a registered violent terrorist organization is in its own right a threat of violence. And last time I checked in america you can respond with force legitimately to ward off a threat of direct violence. E.G. if someone points a gun at you than you don't have to wait for him to fire in order for it to count as self defense.
Last edited by Purpelia on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Purpelia does not reflect my actual world views. In fact, the vast majority of Purpelian cannon is meant to shock and thus deliberately insane. I just like playing with the idea of a country of madmen utterly convinced that everyone else are the barbarians. So play along or not but don't ever think it's for real.



The above post contains hyperbole, metaphoric language, embellishment and exaggeration. It may also include badly translated figures of speech and misused idioms. Analyze accordingly.

User avatar
Mattopilos II
Minister
 
Posts: 2596
Founded: Feb 03, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Mattopilos II » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:38 am

I can think of a few reasons, but I would say their ideas are more easily accepted by a liberal ideology than fascists, their systems manage to last longer than fascists, and they like to at least attempt more of an overarching theory to their intents and ends compared to fascists.
Anarchist without adjectives, Post-Leftist, Anti-theist, STEM major.
“Whoever will be free must make himself free. Freedom is no fairy gift to fall into a man's lap. What is freedom? To have the will to be responsible for one's self.” - Max Stirner
“The victory of a moral ideal is achieved by the same ‘immoral’ means as every victory: force, lies, slander, injustice.” - Nietzsche
“Our duties - are the rights of others over us.” - Nietzsche

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:40 am

Purpelia wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
For the accusation that it started when the counter-protesters struck first, yes.

A counter protest from a registered violent terrorist organization is in its own right a threat of violence. And last time I checked in america you can respond with force legitimately to ward off a threat of direct violence. E.G. if someone points a gun at you than you don't have to wait for him to fire in order for it to count as self defense.


And can you prove that said "registered violent terrorist organization" (whatever the hell that means) was even present?

Especially when we have evidence that the neo-nazis were planning to start violence no matter what.

https://www.unicornriot.ninja/2017/data-release-unite-right-planning-chats-demonstrate-violent-intent/

https://www.unicornriot.ninja/2017/data-release-discord-chats-planned-armed-neo-nazi-militia-operations-charlottesville/

And video of them starting shit.

https://www.unicornriot.ninja/2017/white-supremacist-mob-carrying-torches-attacks-anti-racist-protesters-charlottesville/
Last edited by Vassenor on Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Kavagrad
Diplomat
 
Posts: 922
Founded: Nov 22, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Kavagrad » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:07 am

Oil exporting People wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.


Follow the event chain and see the question that started it off. Further, reflect upon what you said about stomping it out and then consider what exactly that entails to your own beliefs.

When libertarian socialists start advocating or carrying out the killing of entire racial groups, you'll have a valid point.
Claorica wrote:It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal
Sobriety & Anti-Fascism

User avatar
Trumptonium
Minister
 
Posts: 2818
Founded: Jan 27, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:16 am

Vassenor wrote:Especially when we have evidence that the neo-nazis were planning to start violence no matter what.


Vassenor wrote:Especially when we have evidence


Vassenor wrote:evidence




You never fail to crack me up.

Kavagrad wrote:
Oil exporting People wrote:
Follow the event chain and see the question that started it off. Further, reflect upon what you said about stomping it out and then consider what exactly that entails to your own beliefs.

When libertarian socialists start advocating or carrying out the killing of entire racial groups, you'll have a valid point.


You're advocating the killing of entire ideological groups and nationalities, what is your point?
Pro: Things and people I like
Anti: Things and people I dislike

https://www.bolsonaro.com.br/

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:20 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Vassenor wrote:Especially when we have evidence that the neo-nazis were planning to start violence no matter what.


Vassenor wrote:Especially when we have evidence


Vassenor wrote:evidence




You never fail to crack me up.


Was there an actual point you were trying to make or were you just desperately searching for a cheap gotcha?
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54792
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:29 am

You'll find very few left-wingers (who are not ardent supporters of authoritarian 'socialist' regimes) who deny that events like the purges, mass imprisonment, suspension of rights and Holodomor or other famines/failures are atrocities.

But laying them at the feet of "socialism/communism" is like saying the Great Depression was the result of fascist policy because the American industrialists of that time all looked up to Hitler. Yes, they were right-leaning, pro-corporate capitalist models of governance but were fundamentally dissimilar. Much like the USSR is fundamentally different to libertarian socialism or social democracy (which are also fundamentally different to each other) though all 3 are left-leaning, pro-worker 'socialist' models of governance (there are various arguments that neither social democracy nor the USSR attain meaningful qualifiers to be considered 'socialist').
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54792
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:30 am

Trumptonium wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:When libertarian socialists start advocating or carrying out the killing of entire racial groups, you'll have a valid point.


You're advocating the killing of entire ideological groups and nationalities, what is your point?

What nationalities is advocated to be slaughtered in "Nazis should not be allowed to exist", exactly?
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Catalonya
Attaché
 
Posts: 77
Founded: Jan 10, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Catalonya » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:53 am

Oil exporting People wrote:Follow the event chain and see the question that started it off. Further, reflect upon what you said about stomping it out and then consider what exactly that entails to your own beliefs.

Stomping them out leads to war crimes that give moral victory to their cause, and only emboldens them to fight even more fanatically
So in whose advantage is that strategy?

User avatar
Imperializt Russia
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54792
Founded: Jun 03, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Imperializt Russia » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:59 am

Claorica wrote:
Wallenburg wrote:You, regarding the question in the title. In a country where our government won't even condemn violence committed by neo-Nazis, fascism is not receiving nearly as much opposition as communism.


You know those neonazis were attacked by leftists, right? No one's supported the car guy, but the violence at the rally wouldn't have happened if the antifa fascists hadn't been there.

"The car guy" has been pretty widely supported.

Crowdfunding websites have had to continually remove campaigns intended to provide financial support to his legal defence. Various alt-right figures have tweeted direct or implicit support, while others made token denouncements.
Not to mention the zillion alt-right falsehoods that Fields was actually an anti-Trump leftist; a false-flag attacker; or misidentifying him as the car's previous owner and claiming that person was an anti-Trump leftist.
Warning! This poster has:
PT puppet of the People's Republic of Samozaryadnyastan.

Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Also,
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:01 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Claorica wrote:
You know those neonazis were attacked by leftists, right? No one's supported the car guy, but the violence at the rally wouldn't have happened if the antifa fascists hadn't been there.

"The car guy" has been pretty widely supported.

Crowdfunding websites have had to continually remove campaigns intended to provide financial support to his legal defence. Various alt-right figures have tweeted direct or implicit support, while others made token denouncements.
Not to mention the zillion alt-right falsehoods that Fields was actually an anti-Trump leftist; a false-flag attacker; or misidentifying him as the car's previous owner and claiming that person was an anti-Trump leftist.


Or insisting that he was fleeing a violent mob that was beating his car with bats despite it being completely undamaged in the video.
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

User avatar
Community Values
Minister
 
Posts: 2880
Founded: Nov 14, 2015
Ex-Nation

Postby Community Values » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:05 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Claorica wrote:
You know those neonazis were attacked by leftists, right? No one's supported the car guy, but the violence at the rally wouldn't have happened if the antifa fascists hadn't been there.

"The car guy" has been pretty widely supported.

Crowdfunding websites have had to continually remove campaigns intended to provide financial support to his legal defence. Various alt-right figures have tweeted direct or implicit support, while others made token denouncements.
Not to mention the zillion alt-right falsehoods that Fields was actually an anti-Trump leftist; a false-flag attacker; or misidentifying him as the car's previous owner and claiming that person was an anti-Trump leftist.

wow, a violent minority supports a violent person.
Is this what counts as "pretty widely supported" these days?
"Corrupted by wealth and power, your government is like a restaurant with only one dish. They've got a set of Republican waiters on one side and a set of Democratic waiters on the other side. But no matter which set of waiters brings you the dish, the legislative grub is all prepared in the same Wall Street kitchen."
-Huey Long

User avatar
Trumptonium
Minister
 
Posts: 2818
Founded: Jan 27, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Trumptonium » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:24 am

Imperializt Russia wrote:
Trumptonium wrote:
You're advocating the killing of entire ideological groups and nationalities, what is your point?

What nationalities is advocated to be slaughtered in "Nazis should not be allowed to exist", exactly?


Nationalities that happen to support nazism at the time of his slaughtering, I suppose.

He'd have wiped out over 20 million Germans in 1940, more than the Allies managed times five, or he could go all-out if he didn't want to do some Nazi-vetting, I guess. However that would go. How would that go for anyone, anyway?
Pro: Things and people I like
Anti: Things and people I dislike

https://www.bolsonaro.com.br/

User avatar
Claorica
Diplomat
 
Posts: 827
Founded: Aug 20, 2017
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Claorica » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:45 am

Kavagrad wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Those Nazis weren't Americans...

Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.

Yeah no. Fuck you and your Antifa "we should kill nazis wherever we find them" bullshit.

It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal, Because it really is self defense when "It's ok to punch/kill nazis/fascists no matter what" and then "if you don't agree with me you are a fascist" are both said by the same leftists.
Pros: Localism, Subsidiarity, Distributism, Traditionalism, Conservatism, Reformed Christianity, Christian Nationalism, Ruralism, Southern Agrarianism, Regionalism, State's Rights, Gun Rights, Civic Nationalism, Monarchism, Federalism, Rerum Novarum, Christian Monarchy, Christian conservatism, Boers, Presbyterianism (PCA) Aristocracy, Catholicism
Mehs: Israel, Classical Liberalism, Mormonism (they are heretics but they also are role models), LCMS Lutherans
Antis: Palestine, Islam, Communism, South Africa, (Progressive) Liberalism, Socialism, Anarchism (of any Kind, for Anprims to Ancoms to Ancaps), Atheism, Centralized States, Unitary States, Episcopalianism, non-LCMS Lutheranism, Progressive Christianity/Christian Progressivism, Majoritarianism, "Presbyterianism" (PCUSA)

User avatar
Vassenor
Post Czar
 
Posts: 44037
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Thu Jan 18, 2018 7:45 am

Claorica wrote:
Kavagrad wrote:Since when was that relevant? Nazis are Nazis, and their hateful ideology should be stomped out wherever it is found.

Yeah no. Fuck you and your Antifa "we should kill nazis wherever we find them" bullshit.

It's leftists like this that really warm me up to Hoppe's idea of physical removal, Because it really is self defense when "It's ok to punch/kill nazis/fascists no matter what" and then "if you don't agree with me you are a fascist" are both said by the same leftists.


Where does that post say anything about killing?
Jenny / Sailor Astraea
WOMAN

MtF trans and proud - She / Her / etc.
100% Asbestos Free

Hufflepuff/Team Mystic

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aclion, Andsed, Bluelight-R006, Bruhlalalalaland, Cerinda, Charliber, Drunkerland, Drystar, Erictom333, Exabot [Bot], Iridencia, Jack Thomas Lang, Kannap, Liriena, Novus America, Ordenstaat Burgundy, Saiwania, Samudera Darussalam, Telconi, The Greater Ohio Valley, Thermodolia, Upper Secundus, Washington Resistance Army

Advertisement

Remove ads