Please point me to socialism that works.

[Community Values]

So many posts in here with absolute no knowledge of socialism or communism and it's attempts/successes/failures beyond being told "China. Russia. Scary. Bad."

No mention or consideration of what went wrong during the attempts like the USSR reigniting nationalism and imperialism and the revisionists. No mention of how China was known to have periodic famines. No understanding that socialism is primarily considered a transitional state to communism and is a long procedure. No mention of how the U.S has violently suppressed domestic and foreign communists as individuals and as a state.

Also every time they point to an issue in attempt socialist states, there is a direct instance of that in capitalist states as well.
Starvation ; World hunger and fabricated scarcity.
Bread lines ; Soup kitchens.
Gulags ; Prison labour.

It's not America's fault that the impenetrable shield of the revolution can't even beat the manufacturing output or military actions of one measly nation.

I don't personally find corporatism and high economic inequality to be socialist, but whatever floats your boat.

It kind of makes sense from an orthodox Marxist perspective: Marx's theory was made for industrialized capitalist nations like Great Britain. In 1949, China was nowhere near reflecting the same material conditions of Great Britain in Marx's time. Corporatism and high economic equality are not socialist. They are most definitely capitalist... but in that regard, they could be argued to be a necessary prelude to socialism.

Just because they're acting like Bernstein doesn't make them socialist.

[Narintia]

Gulags were death camps that ended up killing more people than the holocaust.
(Gulags killed 32M while the holocaust killed 11M, this is not to justify the holocaust in any way shape or form.)

Source for that number, and if it's the Black Book that's been proven to just be propaganda
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to "Maoist Rebel News" lmfao what the fuck

[Liriena]

It kind of makes sense from an orthodox Marxist perspective: Marx's theory was made for industrialized capitalist nations like Great Britain. In 1949, China was nowhere near reflecting the same material conditions of Great Britain in Marx's time. Corporatism and high economic equality are not socialist. They are most definitely capitalist... but in that regard, they could be argued to be a necessary prelude to socialism.

Just because they're acting like Bernstein doesn't make them socialist.

*shrug*

[Liriena]

Source for that number, and if it's the Black Book that's been proven to just be propaganda
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to "Maoist Rebel News" lmfao what the fuck

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

[Che Triumphant]

Please don't listen to all these people that buy into the right wing propaganda that all welfare is socialism, socialism is an economic system where the means of production are owned collectively, things where many people work to produce money and products or just where many people work, like a factory. And socialism most definitely works it took two incredibly backwards countries, Russia and China, and turned them into global superpowers in a matter of decades. It was also a socialist country that got us into space in the first place. Just look at that growth rate, even if your only measurement of a country is its wealth (which it definitely shouldn't be) The Soviet Union was incredibly successful
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw

Here's a really good video about that
https://m.youtube.com/watch?t=6s&v=Wjx0P3WzPUs

Oh, and all of you who are gonna respond with "press F to pay respects for the 563 quadrillion killed by socialism" or whatever ridiculous numbers you have, that's fun the Black Book of Communism, which even its own writers admitted was propaganda
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw

[Navulva]

Socialism IS NOT Capitalism with a bandaid over its flaws like Bernie Sanders would have you think (Democratic Socialism and Social Democracy are not the same thing either. Sanders advocates the latter despite claiming to advocate the former. Bernie is a rightist with leftist word-choice as is typical of Social Democrat and Liberal politicians).

The Soviet Union and Cuba are undeniable examples of working Socialism. I'd say Maoist China also but I feel like I'd be lynched rather than heard out.

America does not have enough revolutionary potential for Socialism yet. You must convince the populace that Socialism is better than Capitalism, that the actions of the current order are more harmful than good, and establish a working class party/movement which is popular enough to lead the workers. American Socialism is but a dream until the advanced sections of the working class (the politically conscious part) look outside the dominant political beliefs in the nation (Liberalism, Conservatism, and Libertarianism for America) which advocate the different variations of pretending to fix Capitalism.

I believe that socialism works. It's just not done right. First, ALL the people need THE SAME rights, ok? Second, I don't think that a centralized economy is necessary in a socialist utopia. How about this: the state makes some official salaries. I mean, let's say a worker gets 500$/month, for someone who does something else 700$/month and for a politician 1000$/month. My idea isn't really impossible, and idk why someone would be against it. I think it would not only work for America, but for the entire world!
*Listens to the Internationale*

Socialism is not putting a bandaid on Capitalism and pretending the problems aren't there. Also, Socialism is not a utopia either.

Also, why is the ruling class getting the highest UBI (Universal Basic Income) while the workers get the lowest in your system? You don't understand Socialism.

The problem is that so many people are unwilling to admit socialism in any incarnation was a failure. 1. All too often they claim that a failed socialist system wasn't true socialism, and 1. some would go so far as to say socialism in its purest form has never been implemented before. 2.Some consider Sweden and Norway socialist nations, 3.others insist they are social democracies. Some leftists consider Cuba to be socialist and indeed a successful socialist experiment, 4. while others claim it isn't socialist at all but crony capitalist. Still others - mostly non-leftists - say Cuba was in fact socialist and is an example of socialist failures. 5. There is some debate as to whether Gadaffi's Libya could be considered as socialist as he claimed it was, too.

1. [Citation needed]. I never hear this from anyone but utopians and newer Socialists.

2. Liberals usually. Liberals aren't exactly a good way to tell what is and isn't Socialist.

3. Because they ARE.

4. [Citation needed]

5. [Citation needed]. It is generally agreed that Libya had some large Socialist elements. The debate tends to be on whether on not Gadaffi was a good Socialist.

So many posts in here with absolute no knowledge of socialism or communism and it's attempts/successes/failures beyond being told "China. Russia. Scary. Bad."

No mention or consideration of what went wrong during the attempts like the USSR reigniting nationalism and imperialism and the revisionists. No mention of how China was known to have periodic famines. No understanding that socialism is primarily considered a transitional state to communism and is a long procedure. No mention of how the U.S has violently suppressed domestic and foreign communists as individuals and as a state.

Also every time they point to an issue in attempt socialist states, there is a direct instance of that in capitalist states as well.
Starvation ; World hunger and fabricated scarcity.
Bread lines ; Soup kitchens.
Gulags ; Prison labour.

This is literally everything else I wanted to say.

[Kavagrad]

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to "Maoist Rebel News" lmfao what the fuck

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

I genuinely want to see a study of capitalism done by the same logic. Let's watch some heads explode.

[Liriena]

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

I genuinely want to see a study of capitalism done by the same logic. Let's watch some heads explode.

BadMouseProductions tried to do it.

[The New California Republic]

The Soviet Union and Cuba are undeniable examples of working Socialism.

Debatable. Very debatable. The problems of both the USSR and Cuba are legion.

[Che Triumphant]

I genuinely want to see a study of capitalism done by the same logic. Let's watch some heads explode.

BadMouseProductions tried to do it.

It's not "by the same logic" at all, that video gives actual sources and evidence while the black book just makes stuff up

[Kramania]

Socialists of NationStates, I have one question: What form of socialism works,

European social democracy tends to produce very favorable results.

which one will work for America.

Look up New Deal era policies. You had functioning socialism and than you tore it down.

Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up

No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.

Congratulations, that's not socialism.

[Kramania]

Yeah, I'm not going to listen to "Maoist Rebel News" lmfao what the fuck

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

Maoist China alone eeclipses any capitalist body count.

Also, if when an ideology is attempted to be implemented and it continually results in mass genocide then that's a pretty good indicator that it ain't gonna work.

[Vistulange]

-snip-

Basically, "liberals can't talk about socialism". Okay, socialists don't get to talk about liberalism, neoliberals don't get to talk about Keynesianism, Austrians don't get to talk about Keynesianism, and everybody sits in their safe-space-echo-chambers ratting on about how right they are and how wrong the others are, all to their own choir.

What a wonderful fucking world.

[Herzegovenia]

https://youtu.be/e4YDkWzQZAw
There. I do not feel like discussing; but this is some decent input, and i had to show it.

[The New California Republic]

https://youtu.be/e4YDkWzQZAw
There. I do not feel like discussing; but this is some decent input, and i had to show it.

That video basically just says that there can be short-term economic gains from the rapid forced collectivization and state seizures of the means of production. But we already established that. It has also been pointed out that it also leads to economic problems further down the line.

[Liriena]

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

Maoist China alone eeclipses any capitalist body count.

That's debatable at best. This Youtuber estimated about 20 million deaths per year from lack of food, water and vaccines, and these are resources that are largely managed under global capitalism. Provided that there was little variation over time, this would mean that global capitalism, being the economic system responsible for the most optimal production and distribution of these goods on a global scale, would be responsible for the deaths of over a hundred million people in just five years. And that's without adding in the killings of political dissidents at the hands of capitalist regimes or corporate mercenaries, or the deaths caused by capitalist wars.

Also, if when an ideology is attempted to be implemented and it continually results in mass genocide then that's a pretty good indicator that it ain't gonna work.

Socialism has not "continually" resulted in genocide, though. There have been genocides under some socialist governments, but not all or necessarily most. And not every action committed by a socialist government is necessarily an attempt to implement socialism.

(Also, what the heck is "mass" genocide? Genocide is already massive enough.)

[Vistulange]

https://youtu.be/e4YDkWzQZAw
There. I do not feel like discussing; but this is some decent input, and i had to show it.

That video basically just says that there can be short-term economic gains from the rapid forced collectivization and state seizures of the means of production. But we already established that. It has also been pointed out that it also leads to economic problems further down the line.

And there's also the question of "how much freedom are we willing to sacrifice for prosperity"? It's along the lines of the freedom against security debate, just replace "security" with "prosperity".

Living in a country which routinely restricts the freedom of speech and association, I quite value those tenets, personally. I would like to have my right to speak out against the government, no matter who they are.

[Canada Dominion]

A lot of human rights abuse apologia in this thread by people who claim to care about the common man

[Kermouth]

I knew this was going to descend into a meaningless shouting match. (as 99.99% of political debates on the internet do)

[Vistulange]

I knew this was going to descend into a meaningless shouting match. (as 99.99% of political debates on the internet do)

This is NSG, it practically always devolves into it. It got worse in 2016 with the introduction of the alt-right, with their alternative facts, anti-intellectualism, conspiracies and their poorly-hidden racism or religious bigotry.

[New Rogernomics]

I don't think a lot of people know what socialism means, and therefore equate 'welfare' with 'socialism', even though social welfare is basic Keynesian economic thinking.

Then again...that same crowd usually claim that Keynesian economics is socialist or communist, so I don't think a reasonable discussion can be had.

[Kavagrad]

-snip-

Basically, "liberals can't talk about socialism". Okay, socialists don't get to talk about liberalism, neoliberals don't get to talk about Keynesianism, Austrians don't get to talk about Keynesianism, and everybody sits in their safe-space-echo-chambers ratting on about how right they are and how wrong the others are, all to their own choir.

What a wonderful fucking world.

I believe the point was that if you want to define an ideology, the best way to do so is to ask those that actually follow said ideology, rather than those who do not. You wouldn't trust a socially liberal socialist with providing an accurate, non-biased definition of conservatism or capitalism, surely?

(Edit for wording)

[Kramania]

Maoist China alone eeclipses any capitalist body count.

That's debatable at best. This Youtuber estimated about 20 million deaths per year from lack of food, water and vaccines, and these are resources that are largely managed under global capitalism. Provided that there was little variation over time, this would mean that global capitalism, being the economic system responsible for the most optimal production and distribution of these goods on a global scale, would be responsible for the deaths of over a hundred million people in just five years.

Why am I going to take the word of this YouTuber?

Not to be rude, but it seems like continually your only evidence anymore for why socialism as an ideology has any merit is YouTube videos.

Also, you can't necessarily blame the faults of global distribution on capitalism. There are plenty of other factors at play.

And that's without adding in the killings of political dissidents at the hands of capitalist regimes

Oh ho, trust me. You don't want to go there. That's probably the easiest way possible to nail the asses of socialist regimes to the wall.

What about the executions of political dissidents in China, the Soviet Union, countries that lived under the Iron Curtain, Vietnam, Cuba, pretty much every country that has ever been blessed by a socialist regime.

or corporate mercenaries, or the deaths caused by capitalist wars.

"Capitalist wars"?

Also, if when an ideology is attempted to be implemented and it continually results in mass genocide then that's a pretty good indicator that it ain't gonna work.

Socialism has not "continually" resulted in genocide, though. There have been genocides under some socialist governments

And yet socialist governments continually result in mass political repression and human rights violations.

Has the same occured in some capitalist countries? Yes. The difference is capitalism works. The countries with the highest standards of living in the world are capitalist countries. Even nations that once professed socialist and communist ideology have largely become capitalist.

All I really want is an example of socialism working. How can an ideology have any merit at all in the real world when socialists can't provide me with an example of it? 100 years is long enough to show the merits of an ideology.

but not all or necessarily most. And not every action committed by a socialist government is necessarily an attempt to implement socialism.

Then the same can be said of capitalism.

(Also, what the heck is "mass" genocide? Genocide is already massive enough.)

Just catchy wording.

[Lightford]

Socialists of NationStates, I have one question: What form of socialism works, which one will work for America. I ask this question because I understand that American socialists probably will be a lot more generous on religion, unions, minority issues, lgbtq+ issues, and immigration. I am asking will this work? If not, what needs to be adjusted to make American socialism work? My proposal would be a more liberal version of Titoism, with more rights given to unions, the religious, and lgbtq+ folk.

Basically you need a social democracy

[Che Triumphant]

The source asides, there are legitimate criticisms to be made of how the Black Book calculates deaths and assigns responsibility. And if the discussion on the value of socialism is going to boil down to body count, we're going to have to apply the same thinking used in the Black Book to capitalism... and that ain't gonna go well for capitalism.

Maoist China alone eeclipses any capitalist body count.

Also, if when an ideology is attempted to be implemented and it continually results in mass genocide then that's a pretty good indicator that it ain't gonna work.

Source? Again, even the authors admitted that the Black Book was a work of propaganda
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsvZoAATfOw

And even saying that the black book is true capitalism has still kills far more people then socialism does
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnIsdVaCnUE