by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:03 am
by Thermodolia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:15 am
by Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:16 am
Janszoonia wrote:Socialists of NationStates, I have one question: What form of socialism works,
which one will work for America.
Thermodolia wrote:Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up
by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:18 am
Purpelia wrote:Thermodolia wrote:Ok first off you need a better OP. This doesn't have your opinion. Next off gulags don't not equal socialism. They are not required for socialism to work, that's something the USSR cooked up
No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.
by Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:23 am
Janszoonia wrote:Purpelia wrote:
No, they are something that Imperial Russia cooked up. The Soviet Union just inherited the system. In fact, Soviet gulags were on average milder than Imperial ones because they were basically prisons with an actually fixed sentence that tried to keep people alive. Imperial gulags were just a place you sent people to die when you didn't want to be seen executing them.
And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:23 am
by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:24 am
Purpelia wrote:Janszoonia wrote:
And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.
This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.
by The of Japan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:25 am
Purpelia wrote:Janszoonia wrote:
And also, a lot of genuine criminals and Nazi POW's were sent to gulags.
This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.
by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:27 am
The of Japan wrote:Purpelia wrote:This all being said, I don't really see anything about your culture that would be particularly opposed to Soviet style Gulags. I mean, you are very much punishment focused in your justice system. So putting up a very harsh prison in say Alaska wouldn't be too out of place for you.
The gulags was not just a harsh prison
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:33 am
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by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:34 am
by Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:37 am
by Janszoonia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:40 am
Purpelia wrote:Janszoonia wrote:Gulags were death camps that ended up killing more people than the holocaust.
(Gulags killed 32M while the holocaust killed 11M, this is not to justify the holocaust in any way shape or form.)
No they really didn't. The number you listed there is basically all the Soviet losses from all causes during WW2 including the Germans.
I mean, think about it for a moment. Modern day Russia only has 5 times that many people. And it's basically 3/4 of the old Soviet Union. Can you imagine just what kind of social collapse that would have caused?
by The Conez Imperium » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:43 am
Janszoonia wrote:Purpelia wrote:No they really didn't. The number you listed there is basically all the Soviet losses from all causes during WW2 including the Germans.
I mean, think about it for a moment. Modern day Russia only has 5 times that many people. And it's basically 3/4 of the old Soviet Union. Can you imagine just what kind of social collapse that would have caused?
Yes, how could the Soviets have made it to space with such a large social collapse? It's likely that while a lot of Russians were killed in gulags, a lot more Germans and Finns were killed.
by Purpelia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:43 am
Janszoonia wrote:Yes, how could the Soviets have made it to space with such a large social collapse? It's likely that while a lot of Russians were killed in gulags, a lot more Germans and Finns were killed.
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:46 am
by Cosmalia » Thu Jan 04, 2018 6:54 am
by Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:02 am
by Kartofian » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:22 am
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by Bombadil » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:23 am
by Liriena » Thu Jan 04, 2018 7:54 am
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
by GreatestCountryOnEarth » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:01 am
by Bombadil » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:02 am
GreatestCountryOnEarth wrote:socialism doesnt work for various reasons.
the best type of rule is the long lasting and the one that satisfies if not all, at least most people.
socialism rarely cares about peoples voices or free elections. often elections are banned and people killed for not liking policies etc.
socialism rarely cares about peoples consuming needs and focuses on the wishes of the worker-controlled industry which doesnt care what the masses need to consume but rather what the workers want to produce.
socialism destroys inheritance, a human family based society is focused on working hard to leave ur offspring something behind because u care about them, socialism's 100% inheritance tax kills the family. kids will care more about the government than their own parents or grandparents. why even get married then?
a wealthy society is achieved through hard work and incentives, what incentives can one have if u work twice as hard as ur neighbor, but get paid the same? production will fall drastically, along it will fall goods present for the people and general mood will reach historic lows.
socialism tends to block free speech which is usually used by the folks to express what they need.
socialism bans almost always private gun owning which is all people have to defend themselves from a possible tyranny or abusive government(aggressive officials or passive officials bribed from criminal groups) .
socialism bans real money in favor of a fake currency, often more of a point/credit system than an actual monetary unit. money helps people to protect themselves, private security when the government is evil or purposely passive and careless. real money help people buy what they need rather than the junk state-made junk food. money helps
gather and rent places, create a people-run media etc.
a stable society needs order, socialism is half-anarchic, punishments for heinous crimes are often not enough. 12 years of jail for taking a life is not fair in anyway. and people cant do anything about it because they dont have free media, free elections or money to change the system.
socialism doesnt work because it bans all the basic tools people have to defend themselves for rising tyrants. free media, money, guns, free elections. all of which in socialist regimes are state controlled, ur not even allowed to form political organizations that have different views from socialism, or u the people are actually "enemies of the people" because a tiny group of tyrants say so.
lawyers are all public officials appoint by the state, u know whats going to happen if u show up for trial "for treason for disagreeing with the government", u also know whats going to happen to ur dear ones.
u dont have private detector or private investigation companies to defend urself in court from state controlled police, prosecutors, judges who are appointed in office from people who appointed themselves as the government in first place.
socialism isnt tyranny by definition, but it block all the tools that the masses have to defend themselves from tyranny. and we saw what has happened with every single socialst regime in the history of the humanity, they all ended becoming oppressing dictatorships, because the people couldnt do anything about it.
by Liriena » Thu Jan 04, 2018 8:14 am
Donut section wrote:Best weight loss system ever.
I am: A pansexual, pantheist, green socialist An aspiring writer and journalist | Political compass stuff: Economic Left/Right: -8.13 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -8.92 For: Grassroots democracy, workers' self-management, humanitarianism, pacifism, pluralism, environmentalism, interculturalism, indigenous rights, minority rights, LGBT+ rights, feminism, optimism Against: Nationalism, authoritarianism, fascism, conservatism, populism, violence, ethnocentrism, racism, sexism, religious bigotry, anti-LGBT+ bigotry, death penalty, neoliberalism, tribalism, cynicism ⚧Copy and paste this in your sig if you passed biology and know gender and sex aren't the same thing.⚧ |
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