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Trump MAGAThread XI: Button, Button, Who's Got The Button?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:57 pm
by Farnhamia

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:57 pm
by Shofercia
Conserative Morality wrote:
ArUmdAUM wrote:An invasion of North Korea would cause immense devastation to the Korean peninsula and potentially Japan and China as well. There is also potential harm for the US, although it would certainly harm the US economically. 25 million people live in the Seoul Metro Area which borders the DMZ.

North Korea possesses missiles and nuclear weapons which would wreck East Asia if used. Furthermore, an attack would absolutely wreck the US' relations with China, Japan, South Korea, and Russia. North Korea's weapons exist as a deterrent rather than something to be used to irrationally attack other countries.

This kind of thinking is why South Koreans fear Trump more than they do Kim Jong-un.

"They have nukes so the only thing to do is to back off and let them develop the delivery systems to reliably nuke East Asia so they can hold civilized nations hostage with their bluster. =^^^)"

Forgive me for not considering a nation that kidnaps directors from a nation giving it humanitarian aid to make movies for them a rational actor. NK acts on the whims of the Kims, and even stable individuals are, at the best of times, mercurial in positions of absolute power.

No one wants to die. I understand that. But all that's happening here is shifting the death to someone else - a citizen of NK, your children, grandchildren Japan in twenty years... it's trading SK and American/NATO lives for Japanese and NK lives.


It's not. NK will launch a massive arsenal at SK. You wouldn't be doing SK any favors by attacking NK. Seoul is a beautiful city. Destroying it, and it will be destroyed if the US attempts military intervention in North Korea, isn't going to help save SK lives.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:59 pm
by Salandriagado
It's only plausible if you lack knowledge regarding East Asia and believe that all Asians are the same.

North and South Korea have a common traditional culture and language. Historically, they were a single country until forcibly divided by the Allies after Japan's defeat in WWII. Also, they both want reunification with each other, which is important.

China and North Korea don't have much in common apart from both being seen as authoritarian "commies" and being Asian. North Korea absolutely hates its current dependent status on China, which is a result of North Korea's diplomatic isolation. A Chinese annexation of North Korea would result in universal condemnation and the end of China-South Korea ties.

The major players in Korea all know that Korea's division was not meant to be and was a result of Japanese colonization and the Cold War. The US officially supports Korean reunification, albeit on paper.


They don't need to have anything in common. North Korea has something China wants: mining rights. China has the military might to take it. If NK ever does something stupid, or is a smidgen too awkward about giving those rights to China, they'll be under Chinese rule pretty much immediately. If a war does start between the Koreas and NK starts it, I wouldn't put it past China to just invade NK from the north to shift the border south of as many mines as it can.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:00 pm
by Shofercia
Responding to: viewtopic.php?p=33209650#p33209650

It's only plausible if you lack knowledge regarding East Asia and believe that all Asians are the same. North and South Korea have a common traditional culture and language. Historically, they were a single country until forcibly divided by the Allies after Japan's defeat in WWII. Also, they both want reunification with each other, which is important.

China and North Korea don't have much in common apart from both being seen as authoritarian "commies" and being Asian. North Korea absolutely hates its current dependent status on China, which is a result of North Korea's diplomatic isolation. A Chinese annexation of North Korea would result in universal condemnation and the end of China-South Korea ties. The major players in Korea all know that Korea's division was not meant to be and was a result of Japanese colonization and the Cold War. The US officially supports Korean reunification, albeit on paper.


I think that almost everyone who is sane and informed, wants the Korean Unification, since that is the only sensible way for Korea to abandon nuclear weapons.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:01 pm
by Shofercia
Salandriagado wrote:
It's only plausible if you lack knowledge regarding East Asia and believe that all Asians are the same.

North and South Korea have a common traditional culture and language. Historically, they were a single country until forcibly divided by the Allies after Japan's defeat in WWII. Also, they both want reunification with each other, which is important.

China and North Korea don't have much in common apart from both being seen as authoritarian "commies" and being Asian. North Korea absolutely hates its current dependent status on China, which is a result of North Korea's diplomatic isolation. A Chinese annexation of North Korea would result in universal condemnation and the end of China-South Korea ties.

The major players in Korea all know that Korea's division was not meant to be and was a result of Japanese colonization and the Cold War. The US officially supports Korean reunification, albeit on paper.


They don't need to have anything in common. North Korea has something China wants: mining rights. China has the military might to take it. If NK ever does something stupid, or is a smidgen too awkward about giving those rights to China, they'll be under Chinese rule pretty much immediately. If a war does start between the Koreas and NK starts it, I wouldn't put it past China to just invade NK from the north to shift the border south of as many mines as it can.


You can't just invade countries randomly, at least not countries that are as militarized as North Korea. This isn't going to be like the War in Iraq.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:03 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:03 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.

And if they bomb Japan or Hawaii?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:04 pm
by Dooom35796821595
Shofercia wrote:Responding to: viewtopic.php?p=33209650#p33209650

It's only plausible if you lack knowledge regarding East Asia and believe that all Asians are the same. North and South Korea have a common traditional culture and language. Historically, they were a single country until forcibly divided by the Allies after Japan's defeat in WWII. Also, they both want reunification with each other, which is important.

China and North Korea don't have much in common apart from both being seen as authoritarian "commies" and being Asian. North Korea absolutely hates its current dependent status on China, which is a result of North Korea's diplomatic isolation. A Chinese annexation of North Korea would result in universal condemnation and the end of China-South Korea ties. The major players in Korea all know that Korea's division was not meant to be and was a result of Japanese colonization and the Cold War. The US officially supports Korean reunification, albeit on paper.


I think that almost everyone who is sane and informed, wants the Korean Unification, since that is the only sensible way for Korea to abandon nuclear weapons.


I doubt South Korea wants to be unified with a dirt poor nation of uneducated indoctrinated radicals. Not to mention that near every other country in the world have a sensible way to abandon nuclear weapons, just do it.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:04 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.

And if they bomb Japan or Hawaii?


THAAD.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:04 pm
by ArUmdAUM
Conserative Morality wrote:
ArUmdAUM wrote:An invasion of North Korea would cause immense devastation to the Korean peninsula and potentially Japan and China as well. There is also potential harm for the US, although it would certainly harm the US economically. 25 million people live in the Seoul Metro Area which borders the DMZ.

North Korea possesses missiles and nuclear weapons which would wreck East Asia if used. Furthermore, an attack would absolutely wreck the US' relations with China, Japan, South Korea, and Russia. North Korea's weapons exist as a deterrent rather than something to be used to irrationally attack other countries.

This kind of thinking is why South Koreans fear Trump more than they do Kim Jong-un.

"They have nukes so the only thing to do is to back off and let them develop the delivery systems to reliably nuke East Asia so they can hold civilized nations hostage with their bluster. =^^^)"

Forgive me for not considering a nation that kidnaps directors from a nation giving it humanitarian aid to make movies for them a rational actor. NK acts on the whims of the Kims, and even stable individuals are, at the best of times, mercurial in positions of absolute power.

No one wants to die. I understand that. But all that's happening here is shifting the death to someone else - a citizen of NK, your children, grandchildren Japan in twenty years... it's trading SK and American/NATO lives for Japanese and NK lives.

Despite the eccentricity of totalitarian dictators (not unique to NK), the regime is certainly rational when it comes to their security. You're assuming that North Korea will always be the way it is and will never change, when this isn't the case.

The most ideal resolution to the conflict is Korean reunification and integration of North Korea into the world economy. The regime isn't going to last forever, and we have yet to see the results of Kim Jong-un increasingly liberalizing North Korea's economy. A larger middle class may demand greater openness and change a la South Korea and Taiwan, and integration into the world economy will demand greater openness as in China.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:04 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:And if they bomb Japan or Hawaii?


THAAD.

?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:05 pm
by Shofercia
Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.


And if they attack Camp Humphreys in retaliation?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:05 pm
by ArUmdAUM
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Responding to: viewtopic.php?p=33209650#p33209650



I think that almost everyone who is sane and informed, wants the Korean Unification, since that is the only sensible way for Korea to abandon nuclear weapons.


I doubt South Korea wants to be unified with a dirt poor nation of uneducated indoctrinated radicals. Not to mention that near every other country in the world have a sensible way to abandon nuclear weapons, just do it.

Which is why South Korea has an entire government ministry dedicated to pursuing reunification...

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:06 pm
by New haven america
IB: "Ok, so do you think it will stay stable?"

Yo no se. Depending on how the next few years go the economy could stabilize/stay stable, or it could crash, all depends on how the next few years turn out.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:06 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Shofercia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.


And if they attack Camp Humphreys in retaliation?


Well I assume we'd have them overthrown by the end of the day. Some casualties are to be expected but I'm sure we'd be home by Christmas.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
THAAD.

?


The thingy that shoots down missiles.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:07 pm
by Petrasylvania
Shofercia wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:We should bomb North Korea.

That is all.


And if they attack Camp Humphreys in retaliation?

Yongsan is embedded inside Seoul like a chocolate filling as well.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:07 pm
by Dooom35796821595
ArUmdAUM wrote:
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
I doubt South Korea wants to be unified with a dirt poor nation of uneducated indoctrinated radicals. Not to mention that near every other country in the world have a sensible way to abandon nuclear weapons, just do it.

Which is why South Korea has an entire government ministry dedicated to pursuing reunification...


Yeah, and I'm sure page one starts with avoid "at all costs".

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:07 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
New haven america wrote:IB: "Ok, so do you think it will stay stable?"

Yo no se. Depending on how the next few years go the economy could stabilize/stay stable, or it could crash, all depends on how the next few years turn out.

But with your best prediction, you'd say we prolly won't see a crash?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:07 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
And if they attack Camp Humphreys in retaliation?


Well I assume we'd have them overthrown by the end of the day. Some casualties are to be expected but I'm sure we'd be home by Christmas.

Internationalist Bastard wrote:?


The thingy that shoots down missiles.

Does Japan have that?

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:08 pm
by Washington Resistance Army
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Does Japan have that?


It wouldn't be hard for us to station some there. Japan is a good little puppet after all :p

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:09 pm
by Shofercia
Dooom35796821595 wrote:
Shofercia wrote:Responding to: viewtopic.php?p=33209650#p33209650



I think that almost everyone who is sane and informed, wants the Korean Unification, since that is the only sensible way for Korea to abandon nuclear weapons.


I doubt South Korea wants to be unified with a dirt poor nation of uneducated indoctrinated radicals. Not to mention that near every other country in the world have a sensible way to abandon nuclear weapons, just do it.


Like Israel? Like India? Like Pakistan? Perhaps like Iran? It's one thing for Australia, a nation whose biggest threat is the Emu, to abandoned nuclear weapons. It's another thing for a Middle Eastern country to do that. Or North Korea. What if Saddam actually got nukes? Or Khadaffi? You think they'd still be invaded?

Nukes serve as a deterrent to invasion. Once Korea is unified - there's nothing to invade. Short of that, North Korea will continue to have nukes, and we'll continue to speak of potential war. Also, South Korea wasn't flowing in wealth in the 1950s. Would your country work hard for 70 years to double its size and prestige? I think it's a project worth pursuing.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:09 pm
by Janszoonia
Internationalist Bastard wrote:
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Well I assume we'd have them overthrown by the end of the day. Some casualties are to be expected but I'm sure we'd be home by Christmas.



The thingy that shoots down missiles.

Does Japan have that?

Yes and no.

Are missile defense programs in Japan?

Yes

Are they owned by Japan?

No

We need to work with Japan to repeal and replace article 9, which pretty much prevents them from having a military.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:10 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Does Japan have that?


It wouldn't be hard for us to station some there. Japan is a good little puppet after all :p

In time for them to not get blown to bits? I just don't want innocents dying cuz of this.

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:10 pm
by Petrasylvania
Washington Resistance Army wrote:
Shofercia wrote:
And if they attack Camp Humphreys in retaliation?


Well I assume we'd have them overthrown by the end of the day. Some casualties are to be expected but I'm sure we'd be home by Christmas.

Didn't Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq start off with "They'll be home by Christmas?"

PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2018 3:11 pm
by Internationalist Bastard
Janszoonia wrote:
Internationalist Bastard wrote:Does Japan have that?

Yes and no.

Are missile defense programs in Japan?

Yes

Are they owned by Japan?

No

If it can keep the Japanese alive I don't care if the Martians own it.