Trump MAGAThread XI: Button, Button, Who's Got The Button?

[Ifreann]

Well this just got interesting

There isn't enough popcorn in the world.

---

Dun-Dun-DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUN!!!
Actually, no. It'll be fine. Trump is a very stable genius! Surely he can outfox a former federal prosecutor & FBI director.

Unsurprisingly, Trump's lawyers seem to think a face-to-face interview is a terrible idea. Can't say I disagree. There's no way Trump would go through such an interview without perjuring himself a dozen times in a few minutes.

You can't perjure yourself in an interview. He could certainly incriminate himself, however.

[Liriena]

Booker, on the other hand, I don't see going very far.

A Biden-Booker ticket would get some traction though.

Because of Biden. Biden, for all his flaws, is an appealing dude. His way of behaving and expressing himself like a flawed but genuinely emotional human being who sometimes screws up doesn't give off that uncanny valley feeling that more calculated politicians like Hillary Clinton do.

[Thermodolia]

No thanks. Gillibrand would be awful

I'm not saying she's good. I'm saying she might be able to cast herself as just the right candidate for 2020. She's already got a start by being among the first to demand Franken's resignation, saying that Bill Clinton should have resigned as well, and supporting Bernie's Medicare-for-all.

Those aren’t good things at all. I don’t think that Franken should have resigned. It’s self-cannibalization of the party.

[Liriena]

We've had almost a year of Trump, the self-proclaimed anti-establishment status-quo-breaker in power. If there was any situation in which centrists Democrats would see their popularity go through the roof as the American people see what's wrong with "outsider" populists like Trump, it would be this one... And yet who is still the most popular politician nationwide? Bernie motherfucking Sanders, yo.

[Thermodolia]

I could. He has that middle of the road appeal which is probably what the next candidate needs to be, middle of the road. Able to appeal to anyone

The idea that a middle-of-the-road image is what's going to win in 2020 seems rather unfounded to me. Hillary Clinton already tried that in 2016, appealing directly to hawks and conservatives and painting the progressive wing of the Democratic Party as Berniebros and unrealistic dreamers.

Centrist democrats might be able to win in key locations with certain demographics, but on a national level I think a staunch, shamelessly populist progressive might do much better.

Hillary Clinton did not have a middle of the road approach. Also by 2020 it’s going to be 4 years of unpopular populism. You don’t double down on more populism but go for a middle of the road candidate who can appeal to all after a divisive four years of Trump

[Liriena]

I'm not saying she's good. I'm saying she might be able to cast herself as just the right candidate for 2020. She's already got a start by being among the first to demand Franken's resignation, saying that Bill Clinton should have resigned as well, and supporting Bernie's Medicare-for-all.

Those aren’t good things at all. I don’t think that Franken should have resigned. It’s self-cannibalization of the party.

I think that whether that was a good thing or not is highly subjective, but if you suscribe to the idea that the Democrats needed to mitigate their opponents' grounds to minimize their criticism of Trump as hypocritical, getting Franken to resign was a decent strategic mood. It gave Democrats the moral high ground, if at the expense of a very prominent and popular Democrat. There is of course a counterpoint to be made that the moral high ground doesn't really matter anymore because partisan tribalism and polarization ensures that voters will stick by their preferred parties even in the face of blatant double standards... but that's debatable. We do see that phenomenon among Republicans, but I'm not sure the same can be said for Democrats.

[Thermodolia]

We've had almost a year of Trump, the self-proclaimed anti-establishment status-quo-breaker in power. If there was any situation in which centrists Democrats would see their popularity go through the roof as the American people see what's wrong with "outsider" populists like Trump, it would be this one... And yet who is still the most popular politician nationwide? Bernie motherfucking Sanders, yo.

Do you have sources for that?

[Liriena]

The idea that a middle-of-the-road image is what's going to win in 2020 seems rather unfounded to me. Hillary Clinton already tried that in 2016, appealing directly to hawks and conservatives and painting the progressive wing of the Democratic Party as Berniebros and unrealistic dreamers.

Centrist democrats might be able to win in key locations with certain demographics, but on a national level I think a staunch, shamelessly populist progressive might do much better.

Hillary Clinton did not have a middle of the road approach. Also by 2020 it’s going to be 4 years of unpopular populism. You don’t double down on more populism but go for a middle of the road candidate who can appeal to all after a divisive four years of Trump

It's going to be 4 years of unpopular right-wing populism, and that's one thing to keep in mind. Progressive policies are increasingly popular, specially among younger voters, so even if voters go sour on populism, they're unlikely to go sour on the policies of populist figures like Sanders.

Broad appeal is not necessarily synonymous with centrist appeal, specially depending on what demographics outside of the Democratic base you want to appeal to next time.

[Thermodolia]

Those aren’t good things at all. I don’t think that Franken should have resigned. It’s self-cannibalization of the party.

I think that whether that was a good thing or not is highly subjective, but if you suscribe to the idea that the Democrats needed to mitigate their opponents' grounds to minimize their criticism of Trump as hypocritical, getting Franken to resign was a decent strategic mood. It gave Democrats the moral high ground, if at the expense of a very prominent and popular Democrat. There is of course a counterpoint to be made that the moral high ground doesn't really matter anymore because partisan tribalism and polarization ensures that voters will stick by their preferred parties even in the face of blatant double standards... but that's debatable. We do see that phenomenon among Republicans, but I'm not sure the same can be said for Democrats.

Fuck the moral high ground. It hasn’t done anything for us. We had the moral high ground in 2016 and we lost, we had the moral high ground in that Montana special election and we lost. The moral high ground is trash.

[Thermodolia]

Hillary Clinton did not have a middle of the road approach. Also by 2020 it’s going to be 4 years of unpopular populism. You don’t double down on more populism but go for a middle of the road candidate who can appeal to all after a divisive four years of Trump

It's going to be 4 years of unpopular right-wing populism, and that's one thing to keep in mind. Progressive policies are increasingly popular, specially among younger voters, so even if voters go sour on populism, they're unlikely to go sour on the policies of populist figures like Sanders.

Broad appeal is not necessarily synonymous with centrist appeal, specially depending on what demographics outside of the Democratic base you want to appeal to next time.

Younger people do not vote. It’s an unfortunate fact. One that must taken into account. You don’t try to appeal to a group that’s more than likely not going to vote anyway. You’ll get destroyed by the people you pissed off and who do vote

[Liriena]

We've had almost a year of Trump, the self-proclaimed anti-establishment status-quo-breaker in power. If there was any situation in which centrists Democrats would see their popularity go through the roof as the American people see what's wrong with "outsider" populists like Trump, it would be this one... And yet who is still the most popular politician nationwide? Bernie motherfucking Sanders, yo.

Do you have sources for that?

August: http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders- ... ian-655315

Senator Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America, according to a new Harvard-Harris poll. In fact, the Vermont senator and former presidential candidate is the only politician in the U.S. who a majority of voters like.

The poll, which drew responses from 2,263 voters across the political spectrum August 17 to 22, found 54 percent have a favorable view of Sanders, while 36 percent view him unfavorably.

October: http://observer.com/2017/10/sanders-is- ... t-popular/

Sanders’ total favorability in this latest poll is 53 percent, and it is highest among hispanics (66 percent) and African-Americans (77 percent). His numbers dwarf other leading politicians’ on the left and right, including Hillary Clinton, Sen. Elizabeth Warren, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, and Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer.

The poll also asked registered Democrats if they support the party embracing progressive policies and moving further to the left. Fifty-two percent of total respondents were in favor, including 69 percent of millennials, 55 percent of women, 65 percent of Hispanics, and 55 percent of African-American Democratic Party voters.

Now: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/be ... a9ce599bde

[Soldati Senza Confini]

Those aren’t good things at all. I don’t think that Franken should have resigned. It’s self-cannibalization of the party.

I think that whether that was a good thing or not is highly subjective, but if you suscribe to the idea that the Democrats needed to mitigate their opponents' grounds to minimize their criticism of Trump as hypocritical, getting Franken to resign was a decent strategic mood. It gave Democrats the moral high ground, if at the expense of a very prominent and popular Democrat. There is of course a counterpoint to be made that the moral high ground doesn't really matter anymore because partisan tribalism and polarization ensures that voters will stick by their preferred parties even in the face of blatant double standards... but that's debatable. We do see that phenomenon among Republicans, but I'm not sure the same can be said for Democrats.

The moral high ground is only good politically when you can use it as a weapon.

Democrats cannibalizing Al Franken is anything but.

[Liriena]

I think that whether that was a good thing or not is highly subjective, but if you suscribe to the idea that the Democrats needed to mitigate their opponents' grounds to minimize their criticism of Trump as hypocritical, getting Franken to resign was a decent strategic mood. It gave Democrats the moral high ground, if at the expense of a very prominent and popular Democrat. There is of course a counterpoint to be made that the moral high ground doesn't really matter anymore because partisan tribalism and polarization ensures that voters will stick by their preferred parties even in the face of blatant double standards... but that's debatable. We do see that phenomenon among Republicans, but I'm not sure the same can be said for Democrats.

Fuck the moral high ground. It hasn’t done anything for us. We had the moral high ground in 2016 and we lost, we had the moral high ground in that Montana special election and we lost. The moral high ground is trash.

Not necessarily disagreeing with you there... but... in Montana, a sizeable portion of the votes had been cast before the news of Gianforte assaulting a journalist broke.

[Liriena]

It's going to be 4 years of unpopular right-wing populism, and that's one thing to keep in mind. Progressive policies are increasingly popular, specially among younger voters, so even if voters go sour on populism, they're unlikely to go sour on the policies of populist figures like Sanders.

Broad appeal is not necessarily synonymous with centrist appeal, specially depending on what demographics outside of the Democratic base you want to appeal to next time.

Younger people do not vote.

Except when they do.

[Thermodolia]

Do you have sources for that?

August: http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders- ... ian-655315

Senator Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America, according to a new Harvard-Harris poll. In fact, the Vermont senator and former presidential candidate is the only politician in the U.S. who a majority of voters like.

The poll, which drew responses from 2,263 voters across the political spectrum August 17 to 22, found 54 percent have a favorable view of Sanders, while 36 percent view him unfavorably.

October: http://observer.com/2017/10/sanders-is- ... t-popular/

Sanders’ total favorability in this latest poll is 53 percent, and it is highest among hispanics (66 percent) and African-Americans (77 percent). His numbers dwarf other leading politicians’ on the left and right, including Hillary Clinton, Sen. Elizabeth Warren, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, and Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer.

The poll also asked registered Democrats if they support the party embracing progressive policies and moving further to the left. Fifty-two percent of total respondents were in favor, including 69 percent of millennials, 55 percent of women, 65 percent of Hispanics, and 55 percent of African-American Democratic Party voters.

Now: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/be ... a9ce599bde

I think a lot of that is more because of his good guy appeal and less of his policies. Which is why I don’t think he or anyone of his followers will win on policy

[Thermodolia]

Younger people do not vote.

Except when they do.

Well that’s new. History still doesn’t fare well for them. As you see I said “it’s an unfortunate fact”. Maybe they are bucking the trend or maybe it’s just a fluke. We really don’t know. Especially since Jones is not a sanders democrat by any means

[Liriena]

August: http://www.newsweek.com/bernie-sanders- ... ian-655315

Senator Bernie Sanders is the most popular politician in America, according to a new Harvard-Harris poll. In fact, the Vermont senator and former presidential candidate is the only politician in the U.S. who a majority of voters like.

The poll, which drew responses from 2,263 voters across the political spectrum August 17 to 22, found 54 percent have a favorable view of Sanders, while 36 percent view him unfavorably.

October: http://observer.com/2017/10/sanders-is- ... t-popular/

Sanders’ total favorability in this latest poll is 53 percent, and it is highest among hispanics (66 percent) and African-Americans (77 percent). His numbers dwarf other leading politicians’ on the left and right, including Hillary Clinton, Sen. Elizabeth Warren, House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, and Senate Minority Leader Charles Schumer.

The poll also asked registered Democrats if they support the party embracing progressive policies and moving further to the left. Fifty-two percent of total respondents were in favor, including 69 percent of millennials, 55 percent of women, 65 percent of Hispanics, and 55 percent of African-American Democratic Party voters.

Now: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/be ... a9ce599bde

I think a lot of that is more because of his good guy appeal and less of his policies. Which is why I don’t think he or anyone of his followers will win on policy

Well, let's look at one of his main issues: health care.

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-de ... aseID=2477

Replacing the current health care system with a single payer system in which Medicare covers every American citizen is a good idea, voters say 51 - 38 percent.

https://www.kff.org/health-reform/poll- ... alth-care/

The June Kaiser Health Tracking poll finds that a slim majority of the public (53 percent) now favors a single-payer health plan in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan, while just over four in ten (43 percent) are opposed.

However, the recent increase in support for single-payer has largely been driven by an increase among independents. Among this group, on average in 2008-2009, 42 percent said they would favor a single-payer plan, a share that has increased to a majority (55 percent) in the most recent tracking poll.

Language often matters in framing questions about health policy. For example, the February 2016 Kaiser Health Tracking Poll found that when terms were tested on their own, outside the definition of a national health plan that would cover all Americans, the public was more likely to react favorably to the term “Medicare-for-all” (64 percent favorable) than “single-payer health insurance system” (44 percent favorable). However, the current poll finds that when the plan is defined as one in which all Americans would get their insurance from a single government plan, support is similar when the plan was referred to as “Medicare-for-all” (57 percent in favor) as when it was referred to as “single payer” (53 percent).

On the other side, when those who initially oppose a single-payer or Medicare-for-all plan are asked how they would feel if they heard such a plan would reduce health insurance administrative costs, four in ten (17 percent of the public overall) change their position and say they would now favor the plan, bringing total support to 72 percent. Similarly, when this group is told such a plan would ensure that all Americans have health insurance as a basic right or that it would reduce the role of private health insurance companies in health care, total support increases to 71 percent and 65 percent, respectively.

http://news.gallup.com/poll/223031/amer ... edges.aspx

http://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/35 ... healthcare

The latest Harvard-Harris Poll survey found 52 percent favor a single-payer system against 48 who oppose it. A strong majority of Democrats — 69 percent — back the idea. Republicans oppose single-payer, 65-35, and independents are split, with 51 percent opposing and 49 supporting.

[Liriena]

Except when they do.

Well that’s new. History still doesn’t fare well for them. As you see I said “it’s an unfortunate fact”. Maybe they are bucking the trend or maybe it’s just a fluke. We really don’t know. Especially since Jones is not a sanders democrat by any means

I don't think it's a fluke. In the right circumstances, a whole new generation of young voters can become actively, consistently engaged... but the party needs to put some effort of its own as well.

[Shofercia]

Trump would make mince meat out of Booker or Biden. As entertaining as that would be to watch, I'm not sure if the entertainment would be enough to make up for four more years of Trump.

I think you underestimate Booker and Biden. Biden is insanely popular. He alone would have PA voting blue again.

Biden's viewed as an insider. You need an outsider to beat Trump.

I could. He has that middle of the road appeal which is probably what the next candidate needs to be, middle of the road. Able to appeal to anyone

We've entered a political climate in which moderate candidates are branded as 'traitors' and 'impure'. A lot of people want a hardline left-wing or right-wing candidate.

People want outsiders. A moderate outsider would rock the vote.

I could. He has that middle of the road appeal which is probably what the next candidate needs to be, middle of the road. Able to appeal to anyone

The idea that a middle-of-the-road image is what's going to win in 2020 seems rather unfounded to me. Hillary Clinton already tried that in 2016, appealing directly to hawks and conservatives and painting the progressive wing of the Democratic Party as Berniebros and unrealistic dreamers.

Centrist democrats might be able to win in key locations with certain demographics, but on a national level I think a staunch, shamelessly populist progressive might do much better.

> Clinton
> Middle of the Road



A candidate has to come across as genuine. Clinton actually flip-flopped harder than the Republicans pretended Kerry flip-flopped. If you're going to beat Trump - you must be genuine. Why did so many people love Sanders? Because he was genuine. He didn't compromise on his ideals. Kind of like Jefferson, until the Louisiana Purchase, and then he was like "welp, things change"

[MERIZoC]

Christ, at this rate by 2032 we'll have YouTubers running for President.

Sir! President Logan Paul sir! That Vine is very disrespectful and completely unbecoming of the office to which the people of these United States have elected you!

[Thermodolia]

*snip*

It doesn’t matter what the democrats think of sanders it matters what others like independents think. And as of right now they are spilt. Democrats don’t win elections alone they need us independents to win. And Sanders or a sanders like candidate is to much for me and many independents that I know of.

Now do I think that government funded health care would be great? Yes I do.
Do I think Sanders Medicare for all is a good plan? No I do not.

We need to keep the multi payer system it has helped us to be one of the most efficient health care systems in the world. Now multi payer doesn’t mean no government funding. Many nations in Europe are multi payera dn they have government funded healthcare.

We should follow the german method of having 60/40 with 60% of the bill paid by the government and the rest paid by private insurance companies

[Liriena]

*snip*

It doesn’t matter what the democrats think of sanders it matters what others like independents think. And as of right now they are spilt. Democrats don’t win elections alone they need us independents to win. And Sanders or a sanders like candidate is to much for me and many independents that I know of.

Now do I think that government funded health care would be great? Yes I do.
Do I think Sanders Medicare for all is a good plan? No I do not.

We need to keep the multi payer system it has helped us to be one of the most efficient health care systems in the world. Now multi payer doesn’t mean no government funding. Many nations in Europe are multi payera dn they have government funded healthcare.

We should follow the german method of having 60/40 with 60% of the bill paid by the government and the rest paid by private insurance companies

I get your ideas and anecdotes, but we were talking about the popularity of progressive policies and the viability of left-wing populist candidates. And here you have a left-wing populist who has remained consistently popular throughout this year, surpassing his centrist peers, and at least one of his policies have majority support among American voters.

[Thermodolia]

It doesn’t matter what the democrats think of sanders it matters what others like independents think. And as of right now they are spilt. Democrats don’t win elections alone they need us independents to win. And Sanders or a sanders like candidate is to much for me and many independents that I know of.

Now do I think that government funded health care would be great? Yes I do.
Do I think Sanders Medicare for all is a good plan? No I do not.

We need to keep the multi payer system it has helped us to be one of the most efficient health care systems in the world. Now multi payer doesn’t mean no government funding. Many nations in Europe are multi payera dn they have government funded healthcare.

We should follow the german method of having 60/40 with 60% of the bill paid by the government and the rest paid by private insurance companies

I get your ideas and anecdotes, but we were talking about the popularity of progressive policies and the viability of left-wing populist candidates. And here you have a left-wing populist who has remained consistently popular throughout this year, surpassing his centrist peers, and at least one of his policies have majority support among American voters.

Not really no. Support for government run healthcare is about even. And then most of that comes from democrats who massively support it while independents, the biggest voting bloc in the US, are split.

[Liriena]

I get your ideas and anecdotes, but we were talking about the popularity of progressive policies and the viability of left-wing populist candidates. And here you have a left-wing populist who has remained consistently popular throughout this year, surpassing his centrist peers, and at least one of his policies have majority support among American voters.

Not really no. Support for government run healthcare is about even.

I just gave you a number of polls showing at least slim majority support for it. That a lot of that support comes from Democrats goes without saying. What my own sources also showed, however, was that support was rising, including among independents. Independents might be split now, but there's a visible tendency in favour of the public option.

Moving on from health care, another one of Sanders' key issues: higher education.

https://www.cnbc.com/2016/08/01/over-60 ... -says.html

Sixty-two percent of Americans said that they support making public college tuition free for anyone who wants to attend, according to a survey by Bankrate, which polled 1,000 people in late July. The overall margin of sampling error was plus or minus 4 percentage points.

https://theintercept.com/2017/09/21/fre ... e-sanders/

A Morning Consult poll conducted in mid-September finds that a plurality of self-identified Republicans now agree with a “proposal to make four-year public colleges and universities tuition-free,” as the question is worded.

Forty-seven percent of Republican respondents say they strongly or somewhat support the proposal, while 45 percent say they strongly or somewhat oppose it. Seven percent say they don’t know or have no opinion.

Among self-identified tea party backers, support is also strong — with 50 percent saying they support the proposal while 49 percent oppose it.

Overall, 63 percent of Americans support the proposal, while 29 percent oppose it.

And on other issues: https://www.salon.com/2017/01/14/americ ... d-up-here/

A majority of Americans, 61 percent, believe that upper-income earners pay too little in taxes. A majority of 64 percent believe that corporations don’t pay their fair share in taxes. Significant majorities believe that wealth distribution is unfair in America, support raising the minimum wage (though perhaps not as high as Sanders would like), and say they are worried about climate change.

Support for campaign finance reform, another key Sanders issue: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/201 ... .html?_r=0

With near unanimity, the public thinks the country’s campaign finance system needs significant changes. There is strong support across party lines for limiting the amount of money individuals can contribute to political campaigns, limiting the amount of money groups not affiliated with candidates can spend, and requiring unaffiliated groups to publicly disclose their donors if they spend money during a political campaign.

[Ifreann]

I get your ideas and anecdotes, but we were talking about the popularity of progressive policies and the viability of left-wing populist candidates. And here you have a left-wing populist who has remained consistently popular throughout this year, surpassing his centrist peers, and at least one of his policies have majority support among American voters.

Not really no. Support for government run healthcare is about even. And then most of that comes from democrats who massively support it while independents, the biggest voting bloc in the US, are split.

Independents are a voting bloc like atheists are an organised religion.