If there is a God, Why does Evil exist?

[Zohiustan]

A more important question is, how can atheists justify belief in evil without God? Many have turned this argument around and questioned if an atheist can really raise such an objection since there’s no room for evil an atheist world picture. For, if morality is subjective, it is merely a matter of personal reaction, and nothing is truly good or evil. If this is so, the holocaust, the nazis, rapists, murder, pedophilia, adultery, bronyism are not really evil; we merely find them personally distasteful. In this way, the mere existence of evil proves God’s existence.

Fair point, well executed I must say. Yes moral subjectivity is a losing point among the Atheist types I do believe for the similar reasons moral objectivity is a losing point for the religious types

[Janszoonia]

A more important question is, how can atheists justify belief in evil without God? Many have turned this argument around and questioned if an atheist can really raise such an objection since there’s no room for evil an atheist world picture. For, if morality is subjective, it is merely a matter of personal reaction, and nothing is truly good or evil. If this is so, the holocaust, the nazis, rapists, murder, pedophilia, adultery, bronyism are not really evil; we merely find them personally distasteful. In this way, the mere existence of evil proves God’s existence.

Evil is basically as subjective as morality. Certainly to some, particularly those who commit it, genocide is not evil.

Morality is a spook.

[Valrifell]

A more important question is, how can atheists justify belief in evil without God? Many have turned this argument around and questioned if an atheist can really raise such an objection since there’s no room for evil an atheist world picture. For, if morality is subjective, it is merely a matter of personal reaction, and nothing is truly good or evil. If this is so, the holocaust, the nazis, rapists, murder, pedophilia, adultery, bronyism are not really evil; we merely find them personally distasteful. In this way, the mere existence of evil proves God’s existence.

It's not really down to taste, though. It's a mixture of that and the fact that criminal activities such as theft aren't conductive to a pleasant society, which is bad for everyone. Things like rape and murder aren't ever considered "good" because humanity is an inherently social and empathetic species, it's how we get this far.

[Genivaria]

.

That's predicated on the assumption we have free will. A convincing case first has to be made making it clear we have free will before you can even move to the 'meat' of your argument, and I think you still need to make the argument for that first.

I'm not saying that argument is impossible to make, I just think you are missing a step and assuming free will rather than building a convincing case for it first.

Yeah no if you’re gonna doubt free will, you’re going to have to prove that.[/quote]
They have to prove that they doubt free will?
Do you not know how this works?

[Alvecia]

Yeah no if you’re gonna doubt free will, you’re going to have to prove that.

Studies have shown that our subconscious brain begin the process of carrying out an action before our conscious brain registers the decision.
Philosophically you could argue that a decision is entirely dependent on the context and circumstances surrounding it, and that it you were to perfectly replicate those circumstances, you would make the same choice each time. This means that your decisions are never you choosing, but merely the actions that you would have always taken under those circumstances outside of your control.

However, you don't prove a negative, you just doubt the positive. The burden of proof is then on the person making the positive claim. I.e. "there is free will".

[Alvecia]

Evil is basically as subjective as morality. Certainly to some, particularly those who commit it, genocide is not evil.

Morality is a spook.

This meme has gone right over my head.

[Pope Joan]

I do not have an answer for innocent suffering. Other things have been explained as free will, humans being free to choose the evil, and I think there is something to that. And some evil comes from laziness or ignorance, such as failing to maintain or properly build a bridge or building that collapses and kills people.

But when a child is born with an incurable disease and there is no one to blame, what then?

When hundreds of children were killed by a tsunami on the southwest coast of Indonesia, what then? I have had people blame the families for building so close to the shore, but there had never, not one time, been a tsunami there before.

Two children were walking home from school in Seattle a few years ago, after days of heavy rain, and a hill in the park they were walking beside collapsed on them, killing them.

I have no answer for that.

I do believe that Jesus shares our suffering, that this is part of what he bears as he himself innocently suffers. God the Father Almighty does not have a first hand taste of the fullness of this bitterness, but his Son does. This was the only response offered by theologian Dorothee Soelee, who not only asks the tough questions but answers them with wisdom and humility. Only she has said anything theological about the Holocaust which I can stomach.

https://www.amazon.com/Suffering-Doroth ... 0800618130

[Alvecia]

I do not have an answer for innocent suffering. Other things have been explained as free will, humans being free to choose the evil, and I think there is something to that. And some evil comes from laziness or ignorance, such as failing to maintain or properly build a bridge or building that collapses and kills people.

But when a child is born with an incurable disease and there is no one to blame, what then?

When hundreds of children were killed by a tsunami on the southwest coast of Indonesia, what then? I have had people blame the families for building so close to the shore, but there had never, not one time, been a tsunami there before.

Two children were walking home from school in Seattle a few years ago, after days of heavy rain, and a hill in the park they were walking beside collapsed on them, killing them.

I have no answer for that.

I do believe that Jesus shares our suffering, that this is part of what he bears as he himself innocently suffers. God the Father Almighty does not have a first hand taste of the fullness of this bitterness, but his Son does. This was the only response offered by theologian Dorothee Soelee, who not only asks the tough questions but answers them with wisdom and humility. Only she has said anything theological about the Holocaust which I can stomach.

https://www.amazon.com/Suffering-Doroth ... 0800618130

"I don't know" is a respectable answer

[Zohiustan]

I do not have an answer for innocent suffering. Other things have been explained as free will, humans being free to choose the evil, and I think there is something to that. And some evil comes from laziness or ignorance, such as failing to maintain or properly build a bridge or building that collapses and kills people.

But when a child is born with an incurable disease and there is no one to blame, what then?

When hundreds of children were killed by a tsunami on the southwest coast of Indonesia, what then? I have had people blame the families for building so close to the shore, but there had never, not one time, been a tsunami there before.

Two children were walking home from school in Seattle a few years ago, after days of heavy rain, and a hill in the park they were walking beside collapsed on them, killing them.

I have no answer for that.

I do believe that Jesus shares our suffering, that this is part of what he bears as he himself innocently suffers. God the Father Almighty does not have a first hand taste of the fullness of this bitterness, but his Son does. This was the only response offered by theologian Dorothee Soelee, who not only asks the tough questions but answers them with wisdom and humility. Only she has said anything theological about the Holocaust which I can stomach.

https://www.amazon.com/Suffering-Doroth ... 0800618130

What makes suffering such a bad thing?

[New Socialist South Africa]

A more important question is, how can atheists justify belief in evil without God? Many have turned this argument around and questioned if an atheist can really raise such an objection since there’s no room for evil an atheist world picture. For, if morality is subjective, it is merely a matter of personal reaction, and nothing is truly good or evil. If this is so, the holocaust, the nazis, rapists, murder, pedophilia, adultery, bronyism are not really evil; we merely find them personally distasteful. In this way, the mere existence of evil proves God’s existence.

Except that Divine Command Theory is not the only model of philosophical ethics.

I can say that the holocaust is evil from a utilitarian position because it causes pain and removes the potential of pleasure from millions, I can say rape and murder are bad on a similar model.

Or I could argue using the Golden rule, stating that I don't want to be raped, and hence I shouldn't rape, and I don;t want to be murdered, hence I won't murder.

Indeed, morality from God runs into the problem of the Euthyphro dilemma: Is goodness good by virtue of itself, or is goodness only goodness because God says it is.

If good is good and bad is bad by virtue of themselves (e.g. murder and rape just are bad, helping an old lady across the street just is good) then God is irrelevant to the picture, as we have a model of good and bad a priori to him, hence he can be removed from the picture without issue.

If good is good because God says it is good, and bad is bad because God says it is bad, then good and evil are arbitrary, dependent solely on the will of God. Hence murder and rape are bad because God says they are bad, but if God changed his mind and said they were good, then they are good. If God wants to declare wearing red shoes good, then it is good, if God wants to declare helping old ladies across the street bad, then it is bad, if God want to declare torturing his enemies good, then it is good. This runs into the problem that good and evil are then ultimately arbitrary, and can be changed and would be different based simply on the whims of God.

One way to try get around this is saying that God just is good, and so wouldn't rule good things bad, bad things good or arbitrary things good or bad, but this presupposes a good extremal to God itself, which sets us right back to square one, where good is good in of itself and bad is bad in of itself and God is irrelevant to the process.

[Zohiustan]

If these evils acts were justified as being in the best interest of either everyone or most people, that makes it a okay. I just wondering if that is the utilitarian perspective

[Rosengarten]

God(s) may be all-knowing, but not all-controlling.
All humans have free will, for better or for worse, and no deity is to blame for humans' choices.
Though I would appreciate it if G-d could smite a few evils in the world, the only way to fight against evil is to do so yourself, not through prayer.

[Cetacea]

No such thing as natural evil, nothing natural is evil, its just a limitation on perspective
I have argued in the past that taken on a Geological Scale Life is just a process for cycling minerals through an ecosystem, birth, death and decay are just part of the process.

As to human evil thats all Free Will, the ability to make choices with limited information sometimes leads to negative consequences. Those choices are thus either deliberate or disfunctional, religious Laws are intended as guidance on making good choices

The underlined makes no sense, since an ecosystem is made up of organisms, so you've said life is a process for cycling minerals through life. Which is, I guess, a fair (though incomplete) description of what life is, but nothing to do with what, if anything, life is for

If I knew what life is For then I'm sure my world would be very different to what it is now

as it stands yes 'Life' is a process of 'Life' taking in biotic and abiotic factors on a geological timescale, if it helps I do beleive in the Gaia hypothesis

[Zohiustan]

If there is no God, then everything is permitted. There is little reason to well reason. Little reason to be "good"
Why doesn't everyone just do exactly what they want, no matter what the results may be for other people?

[New Socialist South Africa]

.

That's predicated on the assumption we have free will. A convincing case first has to be made making it clear we have free will before you can even move to the 'meat' of your argument, and I think you still need to make the argument for that first.

I'm not saying that argument is impossible to make, I just think you are missing a step and assuming free will rather than building a convincing case for it first.

Yeah no if you’re gonna doubt free will, you’re going to have to prove that.[/quote]

Well no, I'm not making a positive claim. I'm saying that when we are hungry, we eat, when we are thirsty, we drink, when we are tired, we sleep. If we need to work to earn money in order to eat, even if we are tired, we work on because we can't live without food, but we can delay the sleep. My model works absolutely fine in of itself. You are the one coming along and making the positive claim that on top of all this is this thing you call "free will". Its fine to do that, but you can't assume that it just fits in, you have to make your case.

In the eternal words of Michael Swaim: "Its like we are working on a piece of Ikea furniture together, and we are done and you just keep shovelling dowels at me".

The dowels may be necessary, but you need to show how they are necessary, rather than just assuming they are.

Also otherwise you are asking me to prove a negative. You are asking me to prove free will doesn't exist. That would be like asking me to prove that Vishnu doesn't exist, or that Jamaica doesn't have nuclear weapons. I can give you reasons why I don't think either are the case, but I can't exactly prove that a negative doesn't exist, that is not how this works.

Arguing that free will exists is a positive claim however, it is stating that something does exist, like "Jamaica has nuclear weapons" or "the USA exists". When you make a positive claim you have to prove and substantiate your argument. In the case of the USA exists, your positive claim would be correct, as you can clearly point to a weight of evidence making your case. In the case of "Jamaica has nuclear weapons" you face far more of an uphill battle actually providing evidence for your positive claim, as general consensus and all available data just says "no they don't".

[Alvecia]

God(s) may be all-knowing, but not all-controlling.
All humans have free will, for better or for worse, and no deity is to blame for humans' choices.
Though I would appreciate it if G-d could smite a few evils in the world, the only way to fight against evil is to do so yourself, not through prayer.

To ask the question I believe Genivaria is asking, why doesn't God just intervene after the choice is made. They then preserve "Free will" and still protect the victims.

[Alvecia]

If there is no God, then everything is permitted. There is little reason to well reason. Little reason to be "good"
Why doesn't everyone just do exactly what they want, no matter what the results may be for other people?

Empathy

[Jadefall]

There isn't a god. Assuming there is though, I would imagine evil exists to fulfill the purpose of free will. As humans are inherently flawed beings, a world were they have their own way will inevitable have a great deal of evil and suffering. For there to be no evil there would need to be no creatures capable of creating evil, which woudl mean either no humanity, or humanity without free will. God still doesn't exist though.

Regardless of whether or not he does, the presence of Evil itself simply is not enough to disprove such a being's existence.

This is one of the finest logic abortions I think I've read in some time. Thanks for the chuckle & all the best for the New Year.

[Snowflakeastan]

Plot twist,

This is the afterlife, all humans are evil, death is mercy, god lets bad things happen to us because we're terrible beings.

-I don't believe this btw

[Zohiustan]

If there is no God, then everything is permitted. There is little reason to well reason. Little reason to be "good"
Why doesn't everyone just do exactly what they want, no matter what the results may be for other people?

Empathy

Is empathy rational? Is it real? Is it subjective? Is it a construct? Why should I be empathetic?

[Pope Joan]

I do not have an answer for innocent suffering. Other things have been explained as free will, humans being free to choose the evil, and I think there is something to that. And some evil comes from laziness or ignorance, such as failing to maintain or properly build a bridge or building that collapses and kills people.

But when a child is born with an incurable disease and there is no one to blame, what then?

When hundreds of children were killed by a tsunami on the southwest coast of Indonesia, what then? I have had people blame the families for building so close to the shore, but there had never, not one time, been a tsunami there before.

Two children were walking home from school in Seattle a few years ago, after days of heavy rain, and a hill in the park they were walking beside collapsed on them, killing them.

I have no answer for that.

I do believe that Jesus shares our suffering, that this is part of what he bears as he himself innocently suffers. God the Father Almighty does not have a first hand taste of the fullness of this bitterness, but his Son does. This was the only response offered by theologian Dorothee Soelee, who not only asks the tough questions but answers them with wisdom and humility. Only she has said anything theological about the Holocaust which I can stomach.

https://www.amazon.com/Suffering-Doroth ... 0800618130

What makes suffering such a bad thing?

Maybe for a mature adult it can be processed as somehow ennobling, or perhaps the rendition of a just punishment for our failings. I myself do not feel this way, but I see it in Solzhenitsyn and elsewhere.

But I would not want someone who is blase about suffering to be on the medical staff who treat my little girl.

[Genivaria]

God(s) may be all-knowing, but not all-controlling.
All humans have free will, for better or for worse, and no deity is to blame for humans' choices.
Though I would appreciate it if G-d could smite a few evils in the world, the only way to fight against evil is to do so yourself, not through prayer.

To ask the question I believe Genivaria is asking, why doesn't God just intervene after the choice is made. They then preserve "Free will" and still protect the victims.

Precisely.
The moment that say a bank robber pulls the trigger, there's no going back and their choice has been made, and then god makes the gun explode in their hand.

[Alvecia]

Empathy

Is empathy rational? Is it real? Is it subjective? Is it a construct? Why should I be empathetic?

You are regardless. Empathy is biological, not a choice. Those without are diagnosed as psychopaths.

[Genivaria]

What makes suffering such a bad thing?

Maybe for a mature adult it can be processed as somehow ennobling, or perhaps the rendition of a just punishment for our failings. I myself do not feel this way, but I see it in Solzhenitsyn and elsewhere.

But I would not want someone who is blase about suffering to be on the medical staff who treat my little girl.

I didn't care much for the show House either.

[Genivaria]

If there is no God, then everything is permitted. There is little reason to well reason. Little reason to be "good"
Why doesn't everyone just do exactly what they want, no matter what the results may be for other people?

It seems from what the apologists are saying on what god allows, that everything IS permitted whether there is a god or not.

Also mandatory.

then everything is permitted

"Nothing is true; everything is permitted"