Ayn Rand

[Kibbutz Unions]

You are basically saying "stop dealing with poverty, injustice, environmental issues, racism and stuff like that we need to deal with the REAL AND RELEVANT PROBLEMS like ALIEN INVASION!".
Please tell me this is a joke account, PLEASE.

We don't have time for these issues until human expansion into the other star systems. Before we can talk about redistribution let's first ensure that humanity already has enough stuff. Period.

Humanity is far more likely to survive long-term if we stop destroying the environment for capitalist profit for one. And yet you advocate for the very system that will lead to our annihilation.

[Cekoviu]

she's the one who wrote the train novel that basically says the world in Jennifer Government is good, right?

Yes, I think. I haven't read Jennifer Government yet because my library doesn't have it, although it has Lexicon, so I can't be sure if that's the one you're referring to.

[VoVoDoCo]

What does any of this have to do with Ayn Rand?

I tried a few times to keep this thread from derailing. I have failed.

[Northern Davincia]

What does any of this have to do with Ayn Rand?

I tried a few times to keep this thread from derailing. I have failed.

If only we had used the simple phrase, "Would you kindly?"

[Northern Davincia]

Revolution? Not quite.

The English Revolution (1642-1659) was a Capitalist Bourgeois revolution, it was the first of its' kind to have a notable impact.
The French Revolution (1789-1799) was a Capitalist Bourgeois revolution, it was the first successful one and spread the ideas of the Capitalist Mode of Production all across Europe.

Anti-aristocracy does not equate with capitalism automatically.

[Kibbutz Unions]

The English Revolution (1642-1659) was a Capitalist Bourgeois revolution, it was the first of its' kind to have a notable impact.
The French Revolution (1789-1799) was a Capitalist Bourgeois revolution, it was the first successful one and spread the ideas of the Capitalist Mode of Production all across Europe.

Anti-aristocracy does not equate with capitalism automatically.

Part of the whole revolution was the struggle of bourgeoisie to break the merchantilist system and achieve (more) international free trade capitalism and break the Monarchic monopoly over international trade.
It's like, French (And other Atlantic) Revolution(s) 101.

[Elwher]

I tried a few times to keep this thread from derailing. I have failed.

If only we had used the simple phrase, "Would you kindly?"

For I hold that on the seas
The expression "If you please"
A particularly gentlemanly tome implants
And so do his sisters, his cousins, and his aunts.

[Cedoria]

Nup, Rand was nuts.

[Cedoria]

Quite apart from being the battiest female ever to infest the American political scene, her worst crime is that she was an awful writer. Reading her stuff is like going to the dentist to remove root canal, every day.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Individualism is the moral stance, political philosophy, ideology, or social outlook that emphasizes the moral worth of the individual.[1][2] Individualists promote the exercise of one's goals and desires and so value independence and self-reliance[3] and advocate that interests of the individual should achieve precedence over the state or a social group,[3] while opposing external interference upon one's own interests by society or institutions such as the government.[3]

Ayn Rand is the non plus ultra of this peculiar philosophy. I do not like her philosophy one bit, yet that is because I reject individualism. It is inconsistent for self-proclaimed individualists to condemn the natural conclusion of their philosophy. I deny that individualism is consistent with hostility to Objectivism, though I solit any contrary opinion.

*edit for Mod

"What do YOU think? Is it consistent to embrace individualism while opposing Randianism?

What about capitalism running roughshod over the moral worth of the individual through "tyranny of the majority" at the cash register instead of the ballot box? How many trashy tabloids or other such media slander individuals to pander to the whims of the many?

[Taihei Tengoku]

general will btfo

[Northern Davincia]

Quite apart from being the battiest female ever to infest the American political scene, her worst crime is that she was an awful writer. Reading her stuff is like going to the dentist to remove root canal, every day.

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

[Kibbutz Unions]

Quite apart from being the battiest female ever to infest the American political scene, her worst crime is that she was an awful writer. Reading her stuff is like going to the dentist to remove root canal, every day.

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

[Sovaal]

Life's a balancing act. You can believe in something without going to extremes.

[Shikihara]

Quite apart from being the battiest female ever to infest the American political scene, her worst crime is that she was an awful writer. Reading her stuff is like going to the dentist to remove root canal, every day.

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx isn't an awful writer, especially not compared to his infamous master, Georg Hegel. Though I prefer Hegel to Marx, mainly because of my anti-materialist biases.

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

Rand isn't really that widely distributed, most people who hear about her are aware that she was an awful person and don't agree with her, even Republicans.

It's hard to see what profound meaning could lay in reducing all history to racial class struggle, or advocating violent revolution to overthrow democracy because you can't convince people to accept your ideas. Marx's works weren't really meant for the average Joe and were the tool of a mostly petit-bourgeois intelligentsia who used them to try and obtain power.

[Valgora]

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx isn't an awful writer, especially not compared to his infamous master, Georg Hegel. Though I prefer Hegel to Marx, mainly because of my anti-materialist biases.

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

Rand isn't really that widely distributed, most people who hear about her are aware that she was an awful person and don't agree with her, even Republicans.

It's hard to see what profound meaning could lay in reducing all history to racial class struggle, or advocating violent revolution to overthrow democracy because you can't convince people to accept your ideas. Marx's works weren't really meant for the average Joe and were the tool of a mostly petit-bourgeois intelligentsia who used them to try and obtain power.

Marx didn't call for revolution to overthrow democracy, it was more for revolution to overthrow the government.

But I'd say the main reason for Marx calling for violent revolution is his ideas that would help create the Conflict Theory of Sociology: basically, human society is driven by conflict, not by cooperation.

[Kibbutz Unions]

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx isn't an awful writer, especially not compared to his infamous master, Georg Hegel. Though I prefer Hegel to Marx, mainly because of my anti-materialist biases.

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

Rand isn't really that widely distributed, most people who hear about her are aware that she was an awful person and don't agree with her, even Republicans.

It's hard to see what profound meaning could lay in reducing all history to racial class struggle, or advocating violent revolution to overthrow democracy because you can't convince people to accept your ideas. Marx's works weren't really meant for the average Joe and were the tool of a mostly petit-bourgeois intelligentsia who used them to try and obtain power.

This just indicates how little you actually know about Marx, he didn't want to overthrow democracy, he advocated for democracy to an extent that it will also be the way the economy is administrated and not only the few governmental facilities we have.
Second, is that he is profound in his humanistic arguments against capitalism and how persistent they remained throughout the ages. I mean, sure, conflict theory owes a lot to Marxian class-antagonism analysis but that actually is not what I'd regard as the most empathetic elements of his writings. I'd argue that its' his moral arguments against Capitalism and for Communism that truly inspired the masses.

[Shikihara]

Marx didn't call for revolution to overthrow democracy, it was more for revolution to overthrow the government.

If you seek to overthrow the democratically elected government, then you're overthrowing democracy. It doesn't matter if you claim it's going to be more democratic (which, if historical examples are anything, it's not).

This just indicates how little you actually know about Marx,

Socialist arrogance truly knows no bounds.

he didn't want to overthrow democracy, he advocated for democracy to an extent that it will also be the way the economy is administrated and not only the few governmental facilities we have.

See my first point.

I'd argue that its' his moral arguments against Capitalism and for Communism that truly inspired the masses.

Marx avoids speaking about morality and justice in his writings, and he would've probably criticized you for an idealistic analysis of the masses rather than a materialist one.

[Kibbutz Unions]

Marx didn't call for revolution to overthrow democracy, it was more for revolution to overthrow the government.

If you seek to overthrow the democratically elected government, then you're overthrowing democracy. It doesn't matter if you claim it's going to be more democratic (which, if historical examples are anything, it's not).

This just indicates how little you actually know about Marx,

Socialist arrogance truly knows no bounds.

he didn't want to overthrow democracy, he advocated for democracy to an extent that it will also be the way the economy is administrated and not only the few governmental facilities we have.

See my first point.

I'd argue that its' his moral arguments against Capitalism and for Communism that truly inspired the masses.

Marx avoids speaking about morality and justice in his writings, and he would've probably criticized you for an idealistic analysis of the masses rather than a materialist one.

But what he'd tell you is that it isn't really democratically elected, that the current institutions of power are too dependent on the capitalist class and thus fail to truly pursue the interests of the public but rather the interests of the capitalists. He advocated for a new democratic government that also maintained collective ownership over the means of production.

Also, Das Kapital isn't the only thing he's written you know. He was a complicated man who had many different opinions that sometimes changed through time. I personally connect more with "Young Marx" than "Old Marx" for example, but it's absolutely astonishing that you even dare to accuse me of arrogance when you so arrogantly misrepresent him yourself.

By the way, you seem to misinterpret what historical idealism and historical materialism actually mean.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Old Marx is a product of Young Marx ::::---DDDD

[Northern Davincia]

Nobody becomes a famous philosophical author by being an awful writer.
Except Marx, of course.

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

Yet they failed utterly and millions died. I have yet to see anyone killed from Rand's thinking.

[Anime North America]

Marx is actually a pretty good writer though.

Rand's "philosophy" is beneficial to the current ruling class, so of course her work is going to be widely distributed by those that it benefits.
Marx's philosophy is revolutionary and seeks the elimination of class hierarchy. And yet, despite great opposition it spread across the globe, those who read his works were inspired by his powerful words and the profound meaning behind them.

Yet they failed utterly and millions died. I have yet to see anyone killed from Rand's thinking.

I'm sorry, but do you have any idea how many people have died because it wasn't profitable to provide for them?

The Randian philosophy of eschewing mutual aid (and by extension, Capitalism in general) has killed more than le gommunism could ever hope to, and left all but the fortunate few (myself included) worse off for it.

I also get a kick outta your flag. "No gods, no masters", he says! Well, except for the boss, who determines my work hours, wages, living conditions, and essentially every other factor about my life.

[The of Japan]

Quite apart from being the battiest female ever to infest the American political scene, her worst crime is that she was an awful writer. Reading her stuff is like going to the dentist to remove root canal, every day.

What books have you read? I have just read anthem.

[Northern Davincia]

Yet they failed utterly and millions died. I have yet to see anyone killed from Rand's thinking.

I'm sorry, but do you have any idea how many people have died because it wasn't profitable to provide for them?

The Randian philosophy of eschewing mutual aid (and by extension, Capitalism in general) has killed more than le gommunism could ever hope to, and left all but the fortunate few (myself included) worse off for it.

I also get a kick outta your flag. "No gods, no masters", he says! Well, except for the boss, who determines my work hours, wages, living conditions, and essentially every other factor about my life.

Isn't it peculiar that most of the poorest nations in Africa, Asia, and Latin America are socialist?
You can negotiate with your boss for plenty of things, y'know. You can choose not to work for them.

[The of Japan]

Yet they failed utterly and millions died. I have yet to see anyone killed from Rand's thinking.

I'm sorry, but do you have any idea how many people have died because it wasn't profitable to provide for them?

The Randian philosophy of eschewing mutual aid (and by extension, Capitalism in general) has killed more than le gommunism could ever hope to, and left all but the fortunate few (myself included) worse off for it.

I also get a kick outta your flag. "No gods, no masters", he says! Well, except for the boss, who determines my work hours, wages, living conditions, and essentially every other factor about my life.

So the fact that many poor nations have subscribed to capitalism and they can’t afford to immediately fix issues like disease, clean water etc, means capitalism kills millions a year? There is obviously ways to improve our execution, but shitty execution doesn't make it bad.