Don't Pull Your Pants Up!

[Ifreann]

Unfortunate, but the officer made his instructions very clear and Shaver did not comply. Shaver essentially asked to be shot.

Nah, I'm reasonably confident he didn't want to be shot.

[Ohioan Territory]

Unfortunate, but the officer made his instructions very clear and Shaver did not comply. Shaver essentially asked to be shot.

Nah, I'm reasonably confident he didn't want to be shot.

As am I. It was a figure of speech.

[Ifreann]

Nah, I'm reasonably confident he didn't want to be shot.

As am I. It was a figure of speech.

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

[Holy Tedalonia]

As am I. It was a figure of speech.

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Are you advocating that police did bad?

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

True, but everybody knows he was reaching for his trouser which could mean he intends to start shooting, Logic wise the cop did right in shooting him, but outcome wise incredibly bad and will probably make the cop regret his actions for the rest of his life. The lesson is it's not ok to pull your pants up, since you might as well be pulling out a gun, so keep your trousers done on the fucking ground

[Alvecia]

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Are you advocating that police did bad?

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

True, but everybody knows he was reaching for his trouser which could mean he intends to start shooting, Logic wise the cop did right in shooting him, but outcome wise incredibly bad and will probably make the cop regret his actions for the rest of his life. The lesson is it's not ok to pull your pants up, since you might as well be pulling out a gun, so keep your trousers done on the fucking ground

Seems like a huge overreaction by the cops to me. The guy had his pants down, I think it's not unreasonable to consider that maybe he might have had other reasons for reaching for his pants. The cops should have just told him to do it slowly, or waited until they'd actually seen a gun.

[Ifreann]

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Are you advocating that police did bad?

Are you sure that "advocating" is the word you want there? It doesn't really make any sense.

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

True, but everybody knows he was reaching for his trouser which could mean he intends to start shooting, Logic wise the cop did right in shooting him,

No he didn't.

but outcome wise incredibly bad and will probably make the cop regret his actions for the rest of his life.

Whereas Daniel Shaver is dead, and will remain dead forever.

The lesson is it's not ok to pull your pants up, since you might as well be pulling out a gun, so keep your trousers done on the fucking ground

You can stop trying to make this joke now. It's not going to get any funnier.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Are you advocating that police did bad?


True, but everybody knows he was reaching for his trouser which could mean he intends to start shooting, Logic wise the cop did right in shooting him, but outcome wise incredibly bad and will probably make the cop regret his actions for the rest of his life. The lesson is it's not ok to pull your pants up, since you might as well be pulling out a gun, so keep your trousers done on the fucking ground

Seems like a huge overreaction by the cops to me. The guy had his pants down, I think it's not unreasonable to consider that maybe he might have had other reasons for reaching for his pants. The cops should have just told him to do it slowly, or waited until they'd actually seen a gun.

True, but I mean if I had a cop pointing a gun at me I'd ask to pull it up, so I don't give him the wrong idea.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Are you advocating that police did bad?

Are you sure that "advocating" is the word you want there? It doesn't really make any sense.

Eh, gets the point across, but yeah was a bit rushed.

True, but everybody knows he was reaching for his trouser which could mean he intends to start shooting, Logic wise the cop did right in shooting him,

No he didn't.

Huh? He was reaching for his pants, and without letting the cop know. For all the cop knows he is reaching for a gun.

but outcome wise incredibly bad and will probably make the cop regret his actions for the rest of his life.

Whereas Daniel Shaver is dead, and will remain dead forever.

True, but I rather not make the cop be charged for crime, just make him lose his job

The lesson is it's not ok to pull your pants up, since you might as well be pulling out a gun, so keep your trousers done on the fucking ground

You can stop trying to make this joke now. It's not going to get any funnier.

It's semi serious though. I really do mean it.

[Ifreann]

Are you sure that "advocating" is the word you want there? It doesn't really make any sense.

Eh, gets the point across, but yeah was a bit rushed.

No he didn't.

Huh? He was reaching for his pants, and without letting the cop know. For all the cop knows he is reaching for a gun.

And Brailsford could have confirmed that he was not reaching for a gun if he had done something other than open fire.

Whereas Daniel Shaver is dead, and will remain dead forever.

True, but I rather not make the cop be charged for crime, just make him lose his job

I'd rather dangerous killers be in prison than free to move to the next town over and join another police force.

You can stop trying to make this joke now. It's not going to get any funnier.

It's semi serious though. I really do mean it.

It cannot be the responsibility of civilians to learn how to handle the police. That's absurd.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Eh, gets the point across, but yeah was a bit rushed.


Huh? He was reaching for his pants, and without letting the cop know. For all the cop knows he is reaching for a gun.

And Brailsford could have confirmed that he was not reaching for a gun if he had done something other than open fire.

But it could've been to late, he could've been shot. If anything the guy could've done it slowly, making sure not to make the cop think he's reaching for a gun, he even could've said "I'm going to pull my pants up slowly"

True, but I rather not make the cop be charged for crime, just make him lose his job

I'd rather dangerous killers be in prison than free to move to the next town over and join another police force.

To be honest if he were to be let go of a job he'd likely not do anymore misdeeds. Besides if you want to you could say he was doing it for self defence.

It's semi serious though. I really do mean it.

It cannot be the responsibility of civilians to learn how to handle the police. That's absurd.

Its the civilians resposibility to cooperate with the police.

[Ifreann]

And Brailsford could have confirmed that he was not reaching for a gun if he had done something other than open fire.

But it could've been to late, he could've been shot. If anything the guy could've done it slowly, making sure not to make the cop think he's reaching for a gun, he even could've said "I'm going to pull my pants up slowly"

Shaver was on his hands and knees, and Brailsford had him at gunpoint. Unless Shaver was secretly Barry Allen he couldn't possibly have shot anyone before Brailsford shot him. If he was actually reaching for a gun, which he wasn't.

I'd rather dangerous killers be in prison than free to move to the next town over and join another police force.

To be honest if he were to be let go of a job he'd likely not do anymore misdeeds. Besides if you want to you could say he was doing it for self defence.

It cannot be the responsibility of civilians to learn how to handle the police. That's absurd.

Its the civilians resposibility to cooperate with the police.

The police are the ones with the training and the power and the weapons. It's their responsibility to use those things appropriately.

[Holy Tedalonia]

But it could've been to late, he could've been shot. If anything the guy could've done it slowly, making sure not to make the cop think he's reaching for a gun, he even could've said "I'm going to pull my pants up slowly"

Shaver was on his hands and knees, and Brailsford had him at gunpoint. Unless Shaver was secretly Barry Allen he couldn't possibly have shot anyone before Brailsford shot him. If he was actually reaching for a gun, which he wasn't.

The thing is he's actually Jason Bourne! 2x more deadly!

In all seriousness though there is a short time to react which can lead to complications such as this. The police officer clearly overestimated this, but that doesn't mean that he was in the wrong. He was preparing for a mission to deal with armed men which probably have good gun training.

I'd rather dangerous killers be in prison than free to move to the next town over and join another police force.

To be honest if he were to be let go of a job he'd likely not do anymore misdeeds. Besides if you want to you could say he was doing it for self defence.

It cannot be the responsibility of civilians to learn how to handle the police. That's absurd.

Its the civilians resposibility to cooperate with the police.

The police are the ones with the training and the power and the weapons. It's their responsibility to use those things appropriately.[/quote]
Ironically they have pistols, which any bloke off the street can get, however sometimes they can get rifles which is something any bloke off the street can get. Most things they use someone can get, unless its tanks then the bloke gets the tanks.

[The Black Forrest]

Disobey the police when they tell you to crawl forward? That's just asking to get shot.

Don't you know there's a thing called elbows, he should have used them.

Hmmm. Weapons on him. Asshole telling him repeatedly he will be shot. Wonder why he didn't think of it.

[Holy Tedalonia]

Don't you know there's a thing called elbows, he should have used them.

Hmmm. Weapons on him. Asshole telling him repeatedly he will be shot. Wonder why he didn't think of it.

Yeah, maybe he was drunk.
*shrug*

[The Black Forrest]

Hmmm. Weapons on him. Asshole telling him repeatedly he will be shot. Wonder why he didn't think of it.

Yeah, maybe he was drunk.
*shrug*

Also, wasn't he wearing basketball shorts? Can they actually hold a weapon?

[Holy Tedalonia]

Yeah, maybe he was drunk.
*shrug*

Also, wasn't he wearing basketball shorts? Can they actually hold a weapon?

Actually you can, but it's not easy.

[Ifreann]

Shaver was on his hands and knees, and Brailsford had him at gunpoint. Unless Shaver was secretly Barry Allen he couldn't possibly have shot anyone before Brailsford shot him. If he was actually reaching for a gun, which he wasn't.

The thing is he's actually Jason Bourne! 2x more deadly!

In all seriousness though there is a short time to react which can lead to complications such as this.

Killing an innocent man.

The police officer clearly overestimated this, but that doesn't mean that he was in the wrong.

Yes it does.

He was preparing for a mission

Police officers do not prepare for missions. They aren't soldiers or special agents. They are civilians with badges and guns.

to deal with armed men which probably have good gun training.

Yes, only someone with advanced training could point a gun out the window of a hotel room.

To be honest if he were to be let go of a job he'd likely not do anymore misdeeds. Besides if you want to you could say he was doing it for self defence.
Its the civilians resposibility to cooperate with the police.

The police are the ones with the training and the power and the weapons. It's their responsibility to use those things appropriately.

Ironically[/quote]
You should really stop using words you don't understand.

they have pistols,

These officers had rifles, actually.

which any bloke off the street can get, however sometimes they can get rifles which is something any bloke off the street can get.

Obviously false.

Most things they use someone can get, unless its tanks then the bloke gets the tanks.

Congratulations on not addressing my point at all.

[Ohioan Territory]

As am I. It was a figure of speech.

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

Yeah, after the officer very explicitly stated that he would shoot him if he were to reach to the small of his back or lower. The cop being "psycho" is even more a reason to comply with what he says.

I get Shaver was scared. But when someone has a gun in your face and they're telling you not to do something, you probably shouldn't do it, for the sake of your life.

[Holy Tedalonia]

The thing is he's actually Jason Bourne! 2x more deadly!

In all seriousness though there is a short time to react which can lead to complications such as this.

Killing an innocent man.

The police officer clearly overestimated this, but that doesn't mean that he was in the wrong.

Yes it does.

He was preparing for a mission

Police officers do not prepare for missions. They aren't soldiers or special agents. They are civilians with badges and guns.

to deal with armed men which probably have good gun training.

Yes, only someone with advanced training could point a gun out the window of a hotel room.

The police are the ones with the training and the power and the weapons. It's their responsibility to use those things appropriately.

Ironically

You should really stop using words you don't understand.

they have pistols,

These officers had rifles, actually.

which any bloke off the street can get, however sometimes they can get rifles which is something any bloke off the street can get.

Obviously false.

Most things they use someone can get, unless its tanks then the bloke gets the tanks.

Congratulations on not addressing my point at all.[/quote]
Now you've deconstructed the quotes down to a infinite amount of pain. I'm not going to continue since it'd mean more problems with quoting. Even you cant keep up quoting the words, since you have obviously decided undervaluing me as a person can get your point across.

[Ifreann]

Doesn't appear to be a terribly accurate figure of speech. I mean, if I think of someone asking to get shot, what comes to mind is LaVoy Finicum. Remember him? He was one of the dudes who took over the Malheur Wildlife Refuge. When the police made their move to arrest him, he rammed their roadblock with the car he was driving. Then as he fled from the police on foot, he kept reaching into his jacket as if to pull out a gun. Plus he'd stated publicly that he'd die before he'd let himself get arrested.

Whereas Shaver was just some scared guy trying to pull up his pants while some psycho cop screamed shit at him.

Yeah, after the officer very explicitly stated that he would shoot him if he were to reach to the small of his back or lower. The cop being "psycho" is even more a reason to comply with what he says.

I get Shaver was scared. But when someone has a gun in your face and they're telling you not to do something, you probably shouldn't do it, for the sake of your life.

This is increasingly undermining the whole "he was asking for it" thing.

[Shofercia]

I think I'm going to open a classroom with the sole purpose of teaching potential police victims how to crawl while having their fingers interlaced and their legs crossed. It could save a life.

[Nulla Bellum]

I think I'm going to open a classroom with the sole purpose of teaching potential police victims how to crawl while having their fingers interlaced and their legs crossed. It could save a life.

Won't a class showing a police department firing an officer and turning over evidence to prosecutors with recommendations for murder charges against said officer be better?

Outside Brailsford's defense team, I am unaware of any police organization that believes the shooting was justifiable.

[Saiwania]

Outside Brailsford's defense team, I am unaware of any police organization that believes the shooting was justifiable.

His police union apparently thinks that there shouldn't have been a trial at all.

Among other changes, I propose dismantling the police unions that often force police chiefs to put bad cops back onto the street patrolling. Why should teachers unions and all other forms of organized labor be crushed by the right-wing but police unions be allowed to continue being flush with cash and influence? The public pays their salaries and benefits after all.

There should be no collective bargaining within the government sector of the economy when there is no profit constraint and those types of jobs aren't being subjected to market forces. Simply have the government pay set wages and keep it adjusted for inflation.

[Infected Mushroom]

It can't be murder.

Consider the following evidence:

If it was murder, then why would the police even bother to give instructions to the suspect (he would have just shot)? The fact that he's giving out instructions suggests that the shooting was done in self-defence and not as part of a premeditated murder attempt.

It also couldn't have been murder, because it was done in full view of others. What kind of a murderer would do that? He's a trained officer, he'd be more methodical than that if he were a murderer.

Furthermore, there's absolutely no reason to assign a motive. Why would the officer have a motive to murder here? He bears no ill will towards the suspect. I'm pretty sure this was a major point for the defense team at the trial.

[Ohioan Territory]

Yeah, after the officer very explicitly stated that he would shoot him if he were to reach to the small of his back or lower. The cop being "psycho" is even more a reason to comply with what he says.

I get Shaver was scared. But when someone has a gun in your face and they're telling you not to do something, you probably shouldn't do it, for the sake of your life.

This is increasingly undermining the whole "he was asking for it" thing.

How?

The officer was under the impression that Shaver had a gun on his person, and to protect himself, he warned Shaver. He said that he would shoot him if he were to reach back. Shaver reaches back, gets shot. Shaver made the choice to reach back when explicitly commanded not to, so he made the choice to get shot. It's not like the officer randomly shot him without giving him clear instructions.