Don't Pull Your Pants Up!

[Shofercia]

Erm, wow, just wow. Man shot for pulling up his pants. Must've been all that White Privilege that he was having. It's from HuffPo, and they're usually accurate when it comes to shootings.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ar ... ec48acd8db

After a former Arizona cop this week was acquitted of murder in the shooting death of an unarmed man, officials released video of the victim’s final moments. On the nearly five-minute video, which was recorded by then-Mesa police officer Philip “Mitch” Brailsford’s body camera, an officer can be heard giving commands to 26-year-old Daniel Shaver in a La Quinta Inn & Suites hallway on Jan. 18, 2016. “If you make a mistake, there is a very real possibility that … you will be shot,” one of the officers can be heard shouting. “I’m not here to be tactical or diplomatic with you.” Brailsford and several other officers were at the hotel investigating a report of someone seen pointing a gun out a fifth-floor window. They suspected Shaver was involved.

Shaver, who had been ordered out of his hotel room by police, was commanded to lie facedown in the hallway and to refrain from making sudden movements. The married father of two from Granbury, Texas, can be heard crying and appears confused by some of the officers’ commands. On the video, Shaver says, “Please do not shoot me,” as he obeys a command to crawl toward the officers. As he inched forward, Shaver reached toward his waistband. The movement prompted Brailsford to fire his AR-15 rifle five times, killing Shaver. The former cop said he suspected Shaver was reaching for a weapon. A detective assigned to investigate the case later said it appeared Shaver was attempting to pull his pants up.

No weapon was found on or near Shaver’s body. However, investigators did find two pellet rifles in his hotel room. Those rifles were reportedly related to Shaver’s pest-control job. Authorities later learned that he was at the hotel on a work-related trip. Two months after the shooting, Brailsford was removed from the force for violations of departmental policy. Prosecutors ultimately charged him with second-degree murder and reckless manslaughter. A Maricopa County jury deliberated for six hours this week before finding Brailsford not guilty on both counts on Thursday.After the verdict, Laney Sweet, Shaver’s widow, declined to comment to reporters. Her attorney, Mark Geragos, told USA Today he was disappointed in the verdict. He called the shooting an “execution.”

“The justice system miserably failed Daniel [Shaver] and his family,” Geragos said. Brailsford’s lawyer, Michael Piccarreta, said his client had only a split-second to make a decision. “He didn’t want to harm Mr. Shaver,” Piccarreta said, according to the Daily News. “The circumstances that night that were presented led him to conclude that he was in danger. Try to make a decision in one second, life or death. It’s pretty hard.”

Just another shooting. This time it's a white guy, although it's true that black guys are disproportionately shot. What scares me, is that the Jury found him not guilty. And it's a regular Jury, not a Grand Jury. So, what does NSG say?

[Valgora]

Another reason to hate cops.
Not like we needed another reason... well... maybe some people did.

[Ashlak]

I'm all for cops being armed, but our police are way too trigger happy.

[Gyrenaica]

This cop was looking for a reason to shoot. He is a cold blooded killer and ought to be executed like he did to this father. Bootlickers are out in full force on my fb page where I talked about it saying shit like "didn't listen" or "reached for something." Only one persom who normallt sides with the police had the gaul to condemn this cop. When will enough be enough?

[Ifreann]

Disarm the police, depants the populace.

[Principality of the Raix]

They were doing their jobs, simply by reading the article; You can tell. I mean, if you have ever been arrested by cops; It is common sense that when someone has a gun on you, that you do not make any sudden movements. Whether it be cop or someone just mugging you, as it will result with the same outcome of you being shot. In both cases, you should simply do as they want. I mean until the mugging becomes something of a issue towards your well being after giving them your money. Then you may want to attempt to do something, if it comes to life or death. However, when the facts come down to it, this is a simple case that he should of done as the cops ordered and waited for the orders and have done nothing extra. Seeing as once your hands go below the waist, they consider it a weapon in general that you are reaching for.

[Bombadil]

There was a recent podcast on.. amm.. Radiolab that explained why police get away with this. Essentially the ‘reasonable force’ aspect of the 4th Amendment requires the test to not be whether a reasonable person would shoot but solely through the perspective of the policeman. In a tense situation the excuse of ‘I thought he was reaching for a gun’ is all it takes.

[Principality of the Raix]

There was a recent podcast on.. amm.. Radiolab that explained why police get away with this. Essentially the ‘reasonable force’ aspect of the 4th Amendment requires the test to not be whether a reasonable person would shoot but solely through the perspective of the policeman. In a tense situation the excuse of ‘I thought he was reaching for a gun’ is all it takes.

Exactly, reason you keep your hands where they can see them and open. Until they tell you to put them behind your back, after they got a knee in your back or you against their car.

[Ifreann]

They were doing their jobs, simply by reading the article; You can tell. I mean, if you have ever been arrested by cops; It is common sense that when someone has a gun on you, that you do not make any sudden movements. Whether it be cop or someone just mugging you, as it will result with the same outcome of you being shot. In both cases, you should simply do as they want. I mean until the mugging becomes something of a issue towards your well being after giving them your money. Then you may want to attempt to do something, if it comes to life or death. However, when the facts come down to it, this is a simple case that he should of done as the cops ordered and waited for the orders and have done nothing extra. Seeing as once your hands go below the waist, they consider it a weapon in general that you are reaching for.

So the police should be treated like muggers.

[Vendecati]

They were doing their jobs, simply by reading the article; You can tell. I mean, if you have ever been arrested by cops; It is common sense that when someone has a gun on you, that you do not make any sudden movements. Whether it be cop or someone just mugging you, as it will result with the same outcome of you being shot. In both cases, you should simply do as they want. I mean until the mugging becomes something of a issue towards your well being after giving them your money. Then you may want to attempt to do something, if it comes to life or death. However, when the facts come down to it, this is a simple case that he should of done as the cops ordered and waited for the orders and have done nothing extra. Seeing as once your hands go below the waist, they consider it a weapon in general that you are reaching for.

This.

[Principality of the Raix]

So the police should be treated like muggers.

No, rather it is a comparison in how both Cops and Muggers wield their pistols and hold/arrest people. Seeing as going for or making any sudden movements in either situation would kill you.

Added in: This is only logic and common sense.

Edited In: While at the same time, both situations require you to listen and not talk like a dumb dumb. Yes, I mean those who love to trash talk and disrespect people cause that will get you shot only faster. Specially by muggers.

[Saiwania]

I was fixing to post a topic about this but wasn't sure how to set it all up. You did a good enough job.

Anyhow- I usually don't mind if police officers are a tad rough with suspects but if ever there was a case of a rogue law enforcement officer going too far, it would be this situation. This is a psychopath and it is clear to me that he would've killed him from the get go and was looking for an excuse to do so and would've made one up had one not have been forthcoming. He was drunk off of the power and leverage he held. This police officer is a murderer and should be getting more consequences than just getting fired.

I don't know how the video evidence can get any more clearer, he did intentionally kill this citizen. This is a good argument for taking away trial by jury and implementing a Napoleonic system of justice where a Tribunal of 3 or so judges come to a decision, where only evidence is taken into account as to what ruling there should be.

Not even the Schutzstaffel of Nazi Germany would abuse their power like that. They'd hold someone at gunpoint and still move forward to handcuff to apprehend enemies of the Third Reich. This police officer didn't even do that, he is the epitome of a petty coward.

I've looked at this from all angles, and I can't defend it.

[Principality of the Raix]

Besides my above point, this is nothing new in the long run. How many times has people been shot for reaching for their actual wallet? Over a gun, I mean. As in some cases, the wallet has been a gun. However, in the end this is nothing new and you would think that reaching for anything would be the last thing on any ones mind. If a gun is pointed at you, unless you are told to do so. Which those body cams cops wear do have audio, so yeah.

[Bombadil]

I was fixing to post a topic about this but wasn't sure how to set it all up. You did a good enough job.

Anyhow- I usually don't mind if police officers are a tad rough with suspects but if ever there was a case of a rogue law enforcement officer going too far, it would be this situation. This is a psychopath and it is clear to me that he would've killed him from the get go and was looking for an excuse to do so and would've made one up had one not have been forthcoming. He was drunk off of the power and leverage he held. This police officer is a murderer and should be getting more consequences than just getting fired.

I don't know how the video evidence than get any more clearer, he did intentionally kill this citizen. This is a good argument for taking away trial by jury and implementing a Napoleonic system of justice where a Tribunal of 3 or so judges come to a decision, where only evidence is taken into account as to what ruling there should be.

Not even the Schutzstaffel of Nazi Germany would abuse their power like that. They'd hold someone at gunpoint and still move forward to handcuff to apprehend enemies of the Third Reich. This police officer didn't even do that, he is the epitome of a petty coward.

I've looked at this from all angles, and I can't defend it.

See, you can’t use hindsight evidence in a case like this. Whether he has a gun or not is immaterial. The only question is whether the policeman, from his perspective, had a reasonable idea that he was under threat. Take the tense situation, take the person reaching to his pants and that’s all that’s needed. A reasonable policeman, especially where they’ve faced armed people before, would feel under threat.

I don’t agree with it, just stating the case, has nothing to do with juries because the judge must instruct them in this way.

I don’t understand why they need to kill them every time.

[Principality of the Raix]

See, you can’t use hindsight evidence in a case like this. Whether he has a gun or not is immaterial. The only question is whether the policeman, from his perspective, had a reasonable idea that he was under threat. Take the tense situation, take the person reaching to his pants and that’s all that’s needed. A reasonable policeman, especially where they’ve faced armed people before, would feel under threat.

I don’t agree with it, just stating the case, has nothing to do with juries because the judge must instruct them in this way.

I don’t understand why they need to kill them every time.

Specially when you consider the fact that people have begun to randomly start to shoot at them over it staying as it had in the past to centered area's. Having the threat of that being now wide spread, police officers are more... I would say paranoid over people reaching for anything.

[Ifreann]

So the police should be treated like muggers.

No, rather it is a comparison in how both Cops and Muggers wield their pistols and hold/arrest people. Seeing as going for or making any sudden movements in either situation would kill you.

So that's a yes, cops should be treated like muggers.

Have you considered that this is actually really really bad?

---

I was fixing to post a topic about this but wasn't sure how to set it all up. You did a good enough job.

Anyhow- I usually don't mind if police officers are a tad rough with suspects but if ever there was a case of a rogue law enforcement officer going too far, it would be this situation. This is a psychopath and it is clear to me that he would've killed him from the get go and was looking for an excuse to do so and would've made one up had one not have been forthcoming. He was drunk off of the power and leverage he held. This police officer is a murderer and should be getting more consequences than just getting fired.

I don't know how the video evidence can get any more clearer, he did intentionally kill this citizen. This is a good argument for taking away trial by jury and implementing a Napoleonic system of justice where a Tribunal of 3 or so judges come to a decision, where only evidence is taken into account as to what ruling there should be.

Not even the Schutzstaffel of Nazi Germany would abuse their power like that. They'd hold someone at gunpoint and still move forward to handcuff to apprehend enemies of the Third Reich. This police officer didn't even do that, he is the epitome of a petty coward.

I've looked at this from all angles, and I can't defend it.

Noted racist takes time to defend and praise the SS, apropos of nothing.

Wonder what's up with that.

[Saiwania]

See, you can’t use hindsight evidence in a case like this. Whether he has a gun or not is immaterial. The only question is whether the policeman, from his perspective, had a reasonable idea that he was under threat. Take the tense situation, take the person reaching to his pants and that’s all that’s needed. A reasonable policeman, especially where they’ve faced armed people before, would feel under threat.

I don’t agree with it, just stating the case, has nothing to do with juries because the judge must instruct them in this way.

I don’t understand why they need to kill them every time.

This policeman was playing games with this victim and was doing all he could to upset him into non-compliance, that should be obvious from the video footage. All verbal commands should have a purpose and not be used like a game of "Simon Says." He had ample opportunity to approach him to handcuff but never did. This was an unlawful execution if ever there was one.

[Principality of the Raix]

No, rather it is a comparison in how both Cops and Muggers wield their pistols and hold/arrest people. Seeing as going for or making any sudden movements in either situation would kill you.

So that's a yes, cops should be treated like muggers.

Have you considered that this is actually really really bad?

Nice Attempt at taking comparison out of context, when I did state your answer at the beginning. However, when no means yes. I do not know where you learned that type of English. Anyways, it is not bad when you comply. However, seeing as the statements below made by Saiwania and I have not seen the video. It seems the officer was working to make the guy go against him, much like a mugger would. However, this does not mean I am contradicting my above statements. In fact, the situation only tells you or shows you more on how much you must keep you "cool" in such situations. However, I agree with Saiwania in the fact that the orders given by an Officer must be straight forward and not a game like a mugger would act like.

At the same time, a comparison does not mean you should treat any one with whom they are compared too, that is rather short sighted and ignorant in the end.

[The Black Party]

After watching the footage, I've come to the conclusion that the officer did nothing wrong. The situation was laid out clear, and I see no fault. It's a shame that life had to be lost.

[The Black Party]

Another reason to hate cops.
Not like we needed another reason... well... maybe some people did.

Really? What kind of logic are you using here? Some cops shoot people who reach for their waist, so all cops need to be hated? What kind of logical fallacies plague your mind?

[Ifreann]

So that's a yes, cops should be treated like muggers.

Have you considered that this is actually really really bad?

Nice Attempt at taking comparison out of context, when I did state your answer at the beginning. However, when no means yes. I do not know where you learned that type of English. Anyways, it is not bad when you comply. However, seeing as the statements below made by Saiwania and I have not seen the video. It seems the officer was working to make the guy go against him, much like a mugger would. However, this does not mean I am contradicting my above statements. In fact, the situation only tells you or shows you more on how much you must keep you "cool" in such situations. However, I agree with Saiwania in the fact that the orders given by an Officer must be straight forward and not a game like a mugger would act like.

See, you're explaining why, if one encounters a police officer they should behave the same as if they were encountering a mugger, but then saying that cops shouldn't be treated like muggers.

So I'm assuming that you mean what you're actually saying and that any contradictory statements are just the results of doublethink.

[Principality of the Raix]

Nice Attempt at taking comparison out of context, when I did state your answer at the beginning. However, when no means yes. I do not know where you learned that type of English. Anyways, it is not bad when you comply. However, seeing as the statements below made by Saiwania and I have not seen the video. It seems the officer was working to make the guy go against him, much like a mugger would. However, this does not mean I am contradicting my above statements. In fact, the situation only tells you or shows you more on how much you must keep you "cool" in such situations. However, I agree with Saiwania in the fact that the orders given by an Officer must be straight forward and not a game like a mugger would act like.

See, you're explaining why, if one encounters a police officer they should behave the same as if they were encountering a mugger, but then saying that cops shouldn't be treated like muggers.

So I'm assuming that you mean what you're actually saying and that any contradictory statements are just the results of doublethink.

Wow, you need to read. I stated, when you have a gun drawn on you in either situation. However, you want to take what I say out of context. But you know something, people know what I mean. You are the only one attempting to take it out of context and make it seem like a contradiction. After all, if you read fully everything that I stated. Any individual with an education and who was taught respect and manners would know what I say to be true in the end. Specially in the comparison with how both Wield their weapons. However, you seem to not be able to do anything besides attempt a circular argument centered around a simple comparison and taking it out of context to an extent that is not even probable based on the given situations. Now if a Cop does not have his weapon out, you are not going to fear for your life; Are you? I mean if you are scared, just by a cop being near you without his weapon drawn. Well you got something wrong with you, same with anyone who is not mugging you that could be a mugger and you don't know it like you know a cop by uniform. So in the end, nice attempt; However, your circular argument is not going to work here.

[Saiwania]

Noted racist takes time to defend and praise the SS, apropos of nothing. Wonder what's up with that.

The SS committed a ton of atrocities of course, but my larger point is that even they had more standards than this officer. For being the secret police of a fascist regime, they did a ton of things just right. Clean, crisp uniforms, rigid discipline, and a systematic way of conducting themselves. If the SS did wrong, it was their leadership directing them to do criminal actions.

Only the Galactic Empire of Star Wars has a superior Imperial Corps. I haven't come across many real life equivalents of today's geopolitical situation that impress me. You can use fear to instill order to a certain extent, but the point should never ever be to break people when civility is still possible.

[Finswedeway]

Normally, I'd defend the police officer. It's a hard job and it gets harder with every nutcase like this. But said nutcase was excessively brutal in apprehending this man, to the point that it was borderline torture. What crossed the line, though, was ordering him to crawl to him. In no situation would you tell a suspected criminal to crawl to you, that just doesn't make sense. This was clearly a case of abuse of power and murder, and should have been dealt with accordingly.

He's lucky, really, that the man was white. Imagine the outrage if he was a POC.

[The Black Party]

Normally, I'd defend the police officer. It's a hard job and it gets harder with every nutcase like this. But said nutcase was excessively brutal in apprehending this man, to the point that it was borderline torture. What crossed the line, though, was ordering him to crawl to him. In no situation would you tell a suspected criminal to crawl to you, that just doesn't make sense. This was clearly a case of abuse of power and murder, and should have been dealt with accordingly.

He's lucky, really, that the man was white. Imagine the outrage if he was a POC.

Agreed. Either way, he shouldn't have reached for his waist like that, and the officer should've been braver. If our police were trained to be shot at first before returning fire, we'd have a much more respectable organisation.