Trump just recognized Jerusalem as Israel's Capital

[Thermodolia]

And they lost.

Are losing.

No they lost. They lost three wars, in one of those wars Israel was close to capturing Damascus

[Liriena]

But for most of its history, Jerusalem has existed within the territory of countries not named Israel, or in any way related to the Biblical Israel.

Ah, but for how long has Jerusalem been a part of the territory of countries named Palestine?

A question indeed

Welp, it's settled then: Jerusalem goes to either Italy or Turkey, by virtue of Rome and Istanbul holding the records for longest historically corroborated rule over Jerusalem. We'll be holding a thumb-wrestling match between Erdogan and Berlusconi to settle this matter.

[Sanctissima]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries

"exodus"

Nice way of describing expulsion :/

You can thank "academic" bias for that.

I swear, I'll never understand the sympathy large groups of people have for Palestine.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Because the place of their national self-determination is already being the place of someone else's?

You know, the land the Jews got from the British mandate was actually rather small, before the Arab nations had the bright idea of driving the Jews back to the Sea because obviously they shouldn't be allowed to have any nationstate whatsoever.

One of the reasons my sympathy is not off the charts for the oppressed peoples of Palestine; most only “lost their homes” because they didn’t want to accidentally get caught up in all the Allah/Arab-sanctioned Jew killing. The less people in the way, the Arab coalition said, the quicker Israel could be brought to fire and ruin.

Except sometimes when you try to kick the dog the dog bites your leg off instead.

Shoulda known better, trying to open a can of whoopass on God’s Chosen People (tm).

[The of Japan]

You know, the land the Jews got from the British mandate was actually rather small, before the Arab nations had the bright idea of driving the Jews back to the Sea because obviously they shouldn't be allowed to have any nationstate whatsoever.

2/3s Arab in population, over half Jewish in land distribution. That the principle of self-determination was ignored in the UN partition plan is a legitimate grievance.

You do realize much of Jewish land was Negev?

[Sanctissima]

You know, the land the Jews got from the British mandate was actually rather small, before the Arab nations had the bright idea of driving the Jews back to the Sea because obviously they shouldn't be allowed to have any nationstate whatsoever.

2/3s Arab in population, over half Jewish in land distribution. That the principle of self-determination was ignored in the UN partition plan is a legitimate grievance.

Perhaps if they hadn't tried to quintessentially commit genocide against the Jews prior to the agreement (twice, I might add), they'd have been offered a better deal.

Food for thought.

[Neutraligon]

You know, the land the Jews got from the British mandate was actually rather small, before the Arab nations had the bright idea of driving the Jews back to the Sea because obviously they shouldn't be allowed to have any nationstate whatsoever.

One of the reasons my sympathy is not off the charts for the oppressed peoples of Palestine; most only “lost their homes” because they didn’t want to accidentally get caught up in all the Allah/Arab-sanctioned Jew killing. The less people in the way, the Arab coalition said, the quicker Israel could be brought to fire and ruin.

Except sometimes when you try to kick the dog the dog bites your leg off instead.

Shoulda known better, trying to open a can of whoopass on God’s Chosen People (tm).

God's Chosen people my ass. The majority of Orthodox Jews did not support Israel becoming a thing. It was a largely more secular population who formed the nation of Israel.

[Arlenton]

Then perhaps you'll respect this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yom_Kippur_War

Palestine is hardly the victim here.

If you come to somebody's land and say "this is mine", expect an ass-whoopin'.

Six-Day War.

Israel forces: 100,000 deployed
Arab forces: 240,000 deployed

Israel casualties: 776–983 killed, 4,517 wounded, 15 captured
Arab casualties: 18,510-23,510 killed, 5,462 captured

Looks like the Arabs were on the receiving end though.

[Neutraligon]

2/3s Arab in population, over half Jewish in land distribution. That the principle of self-determination was ignored in the UN partition plan is a legitimate grievance.

You do realize much of Jewish land was Negev?

Indeed, the land being offered the Jews was in essence the less arable land. The land that had not already been claimed from the desert.

[Conserative Morality]

Perhaps if they hadn't tried to quintessentially commit genocide against the Jews prior to the agreement (twice, I might add), they'd have been offered a better deal.

Food for thought.

Right, because there wasn't a strong Jewish element of terrorism before the agreement in Mandatory Palestine demanding a pure Jewish state and buying land, killing people, and illegally immigrating to bring that about.

[G-Tech Corporation]

Ah, but for how long has Jerusalem been a part of the territory of countries named Palestine?

A question indeed

Welp, it's settled then: Jerusalem goes to either Italy or Turkey, by virtue of Rome and Istanbul holding the records for longest historically corroborated rule over Jerusalem. We'll be holding a thumb-wrestling match between Erdogan and Berlusconi to settle this matter.

I’m legitimately trying to decide who would rule the city more incompetently.

On the one hand, Erdogan is vaguely more experienced at handling religious tensions.

On the other, Berlusconi might (might) be less hilariously corrupt.

A real choice of two great options there.

[Thermodolia]

Are losing.

No, they lost. They lost the second Israel become a recognized sovereign nation. They lost even harder when 5 different nations tried to destroy the new nation-state...and failed. They failed 3 times.

The fact that Israel had surrounded Suez while being on Damascus's doorstep at the same time is pretty amazing

[Risen Prussia]

In the Bible, the third temple is prophesied to be built in Jerusalem shortly before the Antichrist comes.

I think this is why they want Jerusalem

[G-Tech Corporation]

One of the reasons my sympathy is not off the charts for the oppressed peoples of Palestine; most only “lost their homes” because they didn’t want to accidentally get caught up in all the Allah/Arab-sanctioned Jew killing. The less people in the way, the Arab coalition said, the quicker Israel could be brought to fire and ruin.

Except sometimes when you try to kick the dog the dog bites your leg off instead.

Shoulda known better, trying to open a can of whoopass on God’s Chosen People (tm).

God's Chosen people my ass. The majority of Orthodox Jews did not support Israel becoming a thing. It was a largely more secular population who formed the nation of Israel.

98% sure that whole covenant thing applied whether the Hebrews were faithful to God or not.

But anyway, we digress.

[Thermodolia]

In the Bible, the third temple is prophesied to be built in Jerusalem shortly before the Antichrist comes.

I think this is why they want Jerusalem

Who the Jews? We don't believe in that bullshit

[Neutraligon]

Perhaps if they hadn't tried to quintessentially commit genocide against the Jews prior to the agreement (twice, I might add), they'd have been offered a better deal.

Food for thought.

Right, because there wasn't a strong Jewish element of terrorism before the agreement in Mandatory Palestine demanding a pure Jewish state and buying land, killing people, and illegally immigrating to bring that about.

Buying land is not illegal. As to the rest, there was indeed a strong terrorist group that focused a great deal on the British. The funny thing, the Jewish illegal immigration at the time was not all that different from the Arab immigration today...only the Jews where not going for economic opportunity.

[Collatis]

God's Chosen people my ass. The majority of Orthodox Jews did not support Israel becoming a thing. It was a largely more secular population who formed the nation of Israel.

Indeed. Zionism gained most of its support from secular and Conservative Jews. It wasn't supported by most Orthodox and Reform Jews.

[Risen Prussia]

In the Bible, the third temple is prophesied to be built in Jerusalem shortly before the Antichrist comes.

I think this is why they want Jerusalem

Who the Jews? We don't believe in that bullshit

Oh right, sorry! I forget Judaism didn't believe in the new testament...

Umm

I believe in the New Testament tho ;D

Anyway, there are still people who want to build the temple for Israel so "I think this is why they want Jerusalem"

[Saiwania]

The state of Israel can be thought of as a successor state to the Biblical Israel, because Israel would not have won independence without in part, divine intervention from Yahweh. At least, I think that is how they defeated all of their Arab neighbors invading them with what was then superior weaponry.

[Ostroeuropa]

You know, the land the Jews got from the British mandate was actually rather small, before the Arab nations had the bright idea of driving the Jews back to the Sea because obviously they shouldn't be allowed to have any nationstate whatsoever.

2/3s Arab in population, over half Jewish in land distribution. That the principle of self-determination was ignored in the UN partition plan is a legitimate grievance.

It would be, if either side gave a fuck about self-determination.
I suppose it could be a legitimate grievance argued for deceptively.

But therein lies the wind up.
"You natives say you want self-determination because it's a moral good? Because our government is terrible and we're bad? Okay. Here you go, a botched partition. Should be simple for you guys to sort. Oh look, perpetual war, here, buy some guns. Isn't that much better, now, you can kill eachother instead of us doing it, and we'll just sit here on our island and sell you guns. Oops, one side winning a little too hard, better back the other."

If the populations were legitimate in their criticism of empire, this could not have happened. The result is a result of duplicity. Everyone in the situation is terrible, but one of them is earning money and at least winding up the other two for being hypocrits.

Noticing the minorities on either side who actually would be genuine in supporting self-determination who get fucked by the arrangement is not encouraged. Best to treat the demographics as homogenous groups with a common political will, isn't that right.

No, it's not a legitimate grievance. Ethnostatism contains the seeds of its own destruction.

[Thermodolia]

God's Chosen people my ass. The majority of Orthodox Jews did not support Israel becoming a thing. It was a largely more secular population who formed the nation of Israel.

Indeed. Zionism gained most of its support from secular and Conservative Jews. It wasn't supported by most Orthodox and Reform Jews.

Eh Reform Jews are pretty Zionistic, and I should know. URJ is pretty much on board with Zionism

[Trumptonium]

Good god you know absolutely nothing about Poland, please stop referring to it ever.

You know 1968 was mainly a product of the Eastern Bloc-wide campaign against Zionism (i.e. the creation of Israel)?

The 1968 state campaign against Zionism had absolutely fuck all with the wider Soviet policy (FYI USSR was in favour of, and the greatest ally of, Israel, from 1948 to 1967)

The anti-zionist campaign was a pet project of Moczar, a Partisan. AKA an ultranationlist communist. The enemies of the Partisans inside the communist politics were Muskowici, otherwise known as Polish Jews who escaped to the USSR during WW2 and were trained by Stalin before returning to Poland to take on secret police and general repression jobs inside the government once Poland was occupied, because Stalin distrusted ethnic Poles. Once the Khruschev era started, hell started raining down on them with a shitton of show trials, followed by a general, gradual, move towards anti-Jew policies as a whole. His new secret police unit began screening all Jews and people of Jewish origin for 'hidden zionist' agenda when it came to institutional jobs.

They were also a play to the general persistent antisemitic feeling among the Polish populace, as Moczar was trying to stand for the next First Secretary through deposing Gomulka whom he had fallen out with, and getting popular support was a good idea for the future.

In 1948, 40% of UB operatives (Polish secret police) were Jewish, all directly imported from the USSR, all Polish. [*]. This pretext allowed people like Moczar to get rid of Jews once Stalin fucked off where he belongs.

Most of the hate was directed towards Appendix A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Minc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman

Let me just quote directly from Wiki as that's what you only do anyway

Jakub Berman was born into a middle-class Jewish family in Warsaw in on 26 December 1901. Between 1944 and 1953, he was considered Joseph Stalin's right hand in the People's Republic of Poland – in charge of the Ministry of Public Security – the largest secret police in Polish history and one of its most repressive institutions.[1][2]

Again, stop talking about Poland when clearly your entire knowledge of events in Polish history is skim reading the wiki pages.

[Sanctissima]

Perhaps if they hadn't tried to quintessentially commit genocide against the Jews prior to the agreement (twice, I might add), they'd have been offered a better deal.

Food for thought.

Right, because there wasn't a strong Jewish element of terrorism before the agreement in Mandatory Palestine demanding a pure Jewish state and buying land, killing people, and illegally immigrating to bring that about.

Mayhap the Palestinians should have undertaken a course of action that didn't involve literal ethnic cleansing.

Or called in their besties to help them with round two after the first attempt didn't go over so well. :^)

[Collatis]

Indeed. Zionism gained most of its support from secular and Conservative Jews. It wasn't supported by most Orthodox and Reform Jews.

Eh Reform Jews are pretty Zionistic, and I should know. URJ is pretty much on board with Zionism

Reform Jews went from being mostly ambivalent about Israel before the Six-Day War to being strongly supportive after.

[Principality of the Raix]

Honestly, if we go by history. It is not a mess up, in truth this is the result that should of been. Acting like it is a mess up, is the real mess up. Considering Jerusalem is within Israel. Acting like it is not, is highly; Highly ignorant. While I understand the Muslims will not be happy, however thing is Israel has been the American Ally longer then the Muslim states. At the same time, this would of occurred sooner or later and the fact that it may cause an international war; Sorry, but Israel is beating you and the Donald to this issue having already violated many territorial borders and attacked regions without the world populace knowing. So here is the facts,First it was the Gaza stripe, While Israel will not let anyone hold Syria; In the end, thinking that the Donald claiming Jerusalem as the capital will change anything, it won't. If anything, it will anger a few people as it has been proven that even the Israeli army is not solely Israeli's. Understanding this, I think the reactions to this are ridiculous. Seeing as this benefits America and maybe in time will benefit everyone else.

While thinking Israel is weak compared to the rest of the Muslim world is highly doubtful, we are talking about a people constantly practically at war. Just saying.