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Trump just recognized Jerusalem as Israel's Capital

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Do you approve or disapprove of this action?

Approve(Like Israel)
193
31%
Approve(Dislike Israel)
21
3%
Approve(Neutral)
42
7%
Unsure(Like Israel)
25
4%
Unsure(Dislike Israel)
14
2%
Unsure(Neutral on Israel)
44
7%
Disapprove(Like Israel)
70
11%
Disapprove(Hate Israel)
94
15%
Disapprove(Neutral on Israel)
125
20%
 
Total votes : 628

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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:29 pm

Kennlind wrote:
Deian salazar wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-jerusalem-israel-capital-turkey-organization-islamic-cooperation/

Yup. Trump did it. The madman did it. He's caused another unnecessary crisis, just like Yemen and Qatar.
Yes I am aware of the argument for doing it, but this will cause another diplomatic crisis even if they stay our allies, it will strain ties further.
I personally think one of 4 things will happen:

1: Diplomatic crisis that makes USA be seen as enemy of Islam by many people but still an ally of many Muslim governments.(Most likely)
2: Cause a holy war(Extremely unlikely but possible if things get bad enough. Not impossible, but quite implausible.).
3: Many Muslim states cut off all ties with USA(Still pretty unlikely but more likely than the Holy War.)
4: Some Muslim states limit access to oil and use that as leverage(Unsure of this, it is a major Saud money-maker and they may be quite hesitant to do it, but it's not impossible realistically. Could still happen. Slightly but not much more likely than the Holy War.)
Either way, this is going to cause issue with the Israel-Palestinian peace process, in my personal opinion and result in another unneeded crisis, even if you support Israel strongly, you gotta agree this is another headache not worth creating.
To me he f*cked up, I'd have said this of any President, whether I liked Muslims or not this is strategically a poor move.

What? How did he cause the crises in Yemen and Qatar? The Arab Spring was backed by OBAMA's government.

1. They've been seen as an enemy of Islam for at least two decades
2. Yes that's totally gonna happen
3. Not gonna happen
4. Not gonna happen

He did not fuck up. He did what was right: supporting Israel against Hamas/PLO terrorists.


1: This could result in further and more strained relations.
2: Again, as I said very unlikely.
3: Reasoning?
4: Reasoning?

EDIT: Never he said he caused that in Yemen, also he took credit for the Qatar crisis early on.
Last edited by Deian salazar on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:29 pm

Kennlind wrote:
Deian salazar wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-jerusalem-israel-capital-turkey-organization-islamic-cooperation/

Yup. Trump did it. The madman did it. He's caused another unnecessary crisis, just like Yemen and Qatar.
Yes I am aware of the argument for doing it, but this will cause another diplomatic crisis even if they stay our allies, it will strain ties further.
I personally think one of 4 things will happen:

1: Diplomatic crisis that makes USA be seen as enemy of Islam by many people but still an ally of many Muslim governments.(Most likely)
2: Cause a holy war(Extremely unlikely but possible if things get bad enough. Not impossible, but quite implausible.).
3: Many Muslim states cut off all ties with USA(Still pretty unlikely but more likely than the Holy War.)
4: Some Muslim states limit access to oil and use that as leverage(Unsure of this, it is a major Saud money-maker and they may be quite hesitant to do it, but it's not impossible realistically. Could still happen. Slightly but not much more likely than the Holy War.)
Either way, this is going to cause issue with the Israel-Palestinian peace process, in my personal opinion and result in another unneeded crisis, even if you support Israel strongly, you gotta agree this is another headache not worth creating.
To me he f*cked up, I'd have said this of any President, whether I liked Muslims or not this is strategically a poor move.

What? How did he cause the crises in Yemen and Qatar? The Arab Spring was backed by OBAMA's government.

1. They've been seen as an enemy of Islam for at least two decades
2. Yes that's totally gonna happen
3. Not gonna happen
4. Not gonna happen

He did not fuck up. He did what was right: supporting Israel against Hamas/PLO terrorists.

The IDF are just as much terrorists as Hamas.
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Cyrothica
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Postby Cyrothica » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:30 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Cyrothica wrote:Jerusalem was always Israel's capital, and I find it more sadistic to carve up a sovereign nation to appease it's neighbors than to cause a "diplomatic crisis".

And you should probably place this in the Trump thread just to be safe to be honest.

Israel carved up Palestine, not the other way around.

And Palestine was a Jewish State. Even had a Jewish flag. The land was always Jewish. The arabs didn't lay claim to it until Egypt and Jordan begun exiling people. And Israel didn't carve the land - The U.K. did. And last I've checked, since Israel has it's own economy, army, seat in NATO and UN, which therefor makes it a nation by legal rights. Also if we're going to go by "Well since so and so invaded such and such, the land should be returned to the former citizens" then let's apply this to Canada, U.S., Europe, China, Korea, and so on if thats how the game is gonna be played.
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Trumptonium
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Postby Trumptonium » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:31 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Trumptonium wrote:But Jerusalem is and should remain Israel's capital, recognised by all.


"All" currently consisting of exactly two countries.


These countries have embassies in Jerusalem.

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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Cyrothica wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Israel carved up Palestine, not the other way around.

And Palestine was a Jewish State. Even had a Jewish flag. The land was always Jewish. The arabs didn't lay claim to it until Egypt and Jordan begun exiling people. And Israel didn't carve the land - The U.K. did. And last I've checked, since Israel has it's own economy, army, seat in NATO and UN, which therefor makes it a nation by legal rights. Also if we're going to go by "Well since so and so invaded such and such, the land should be returned to the former citizens" then let's apply this to Canada, U.S., Europe, China, Korea, and so on if thats how the game is gonna be played.

Palestine was promised independence from the Brits.
Specifically in Jerusalem and the rest of modern Israel.
The Brits f*cked up and the USA is just making it worse.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Cyrothica wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Israel carved up Palestine, not the other way around.

And Palestine was a Jewish State. Even had a Jewish flag. The land was always Jewish. The arabs didn't lay claim to it until Egypt and Jordan begun exiling people. And Israel didn't carve the land - The U.K. did. And last I've checked, since Israel has it's own economy, army, seat in NATO and UN, which therefor makes it a nation by legal rights. Also if we're going to go by "Well since so and so invaded such and such, the land should be returned to the former citizens" then let's apply this to Canada, U.S., Europe, China, Korea, and so on if thats how the game is gonna be played.

Arabs were the majority in every part of Palestine except Jaffa.
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Postby The Alma Mater » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:33 pm

Trumptonium wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
"All" currently consisting of exactly two countries.


These countries have embassies in Jerusalem.

Image


No they don 't. There are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem - they are all in Tel Aviv.
Your own link also specifically states MISSIONS, not EMBASSIES.
Last edited by The Alma Mater on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Aellex
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Postby Aellex » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Good thing. It's only coming to term with reality, anyway.
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:34 pm

Trumptonium wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
"All" currently consisting of exactly two countries.


These countries have embassies in Jerusalem.

Image

However none recognize it as the Jewish Capital. There's a difference, it's in their eyes having an embassy in New York.

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The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp
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Postby The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Deian salazar wrote:
The Derpy Democratic Republic Of Herp wrote:
Trump said something stupid. Bears shit in woods. Watersides are fun.

This is not a crises this is just something dumb.


It is. It has vast consequences. Sorry but saying dumb stuff can cause crises. And official recognition as well.
This would be like recognizing Raqqa as ISIS's capital in 2014 if ISIS had hostile relations with it's neighbors and they didn't recognize it but somehow wasn't at war. They hate them, it'd cause a crisis. Same thing if the USA recognized the Kurds, or Catalans.

It can, or it can just be dumb stuff.
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Kennlind
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Postby Kennlind » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Kennlind wrote:What? How did he cause the crises in Yemen and Qatar? The Arab Spring was backed by OBAMA's government.

1. They've been seen as an enemy of Islam for at least two decades
2. Yes that's totally gonna happen
3. Not gonna happen
4. Not gonna happen

He did not fuck up. He did what was right: supporting Israel against Hamas/PLO terrorists.

The IDF are just as much terrorists as Hamas.

No they're not. They're defending their country, Hamas actively target civilians.
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

The Alma Mater wrote:
Trumptonium wrote:
These countries have embassies in Jerusalem.

Image


No they don 't. There are no foreign embassies in Jerusalem - they are all in Tel Aviv.
Your own link also specifically states MISSIONS, not EMBASSIES.

Oh thanks, I didn't look at the source admittedly. Just the image.
However I did know none of those recognized Jerusalem as the capital and was surprised to "find" they had embassies in Jerusalem. Thanks!

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Grand Britannia
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Postby Grand Britannia » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Deian salazar wrote:https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/world/middleeast/trump-jerusalem-israel-capital.html
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/donald-trump-jerusalem-israel-capital-turkey-organization-islamic-cooperation/

Yup. Trump did it. The madman did it. He's caused another unnecessary crisis, just like Yemen and Qatar.
Yes I am aware of the argument for doing it, but this will cause another diplomatic crisis even if they stay our allies, it will strain ties further.
I personally think one of 4 things will happen:

1: Diplomatic crisis that makes USA be seen as enemy of Islam by many people


Nothing new then, neat.
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Trumptonium wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:
"All" currently consisting of exactly two countries.


These countries have embassies in Jerusalem.

Image


The UK embassy is in Tel Aviv. It has a consulate in Jerusalem. They are not the same things.

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Postby Petrasylvania » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:35 pm

Trump just approved Israel ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.
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Cyrothica
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Postby Cyrothica » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm

Deian salazar wrote:
Cyrothica wrote:And Palestine was a Jewish State. Even had a Jewish flag. The land was always Jewish. The arabs didn't lay claim to it until Egypt and Jordan begun exiling people. And Israel didn't carve the land - The U.K. did. And last I've checked, since Israel has it's own economy, army, seat in NATO and UN, which therefor makes it a nation by legal rights. Also if we're going to go by "Well since so and so invaded such and such, the land should be returned to the former citizens" then let's apply this to Canada, U.S., Europe, China, Korea, and so on if thats how the game is gonna be played.

Palestine was promised independence from the Brits.
Specifically in Jerusalem and the rest of modern Israel.
The Brits f*cked up and the USA is just making it worse.

How's it worse when clearly the Jews established their own nation? Yeah the IDF can be brutal, but if you had a bunch of shitheads as your neighbor, I'm sure you'd want your military to be just as brutal as they are. And as I've stated before, Palestine pre 1960's were Jewish anyway, all they did was change the name of their country. A bunch of jews didn't just look at the news paper and go "Oh! Time to go steal some land before it gets claimed!" Sorry dude, but Israel is a sovereign country whether you like it or not.
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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm

Kennlind wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The IDF are just as much terrorists as Hamas.

No they're not. They're defending their country, Hamas actively target civilians.

Palestine is defending it's own country too in their own eyes. They see the Israelis as Imperialists. And are supported by the Arab nations.
Contrary to popular belief your side recognizing them as terrorists or not doesn't make them so or not, your side is often biased due to geopolitics.
In reality even freedom fighting groups can be considered Terrorists. As such one man's Terrorist is another man's Freedom Fighter.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:37 pm

Kennlind wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The IDF are just as much terrorists as Hamas.

No they're not. 1) They're defending their country, 2) Hamas actively target civilians.

1) So is Hamas.
2) So does the IDF.
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Cyrothica
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Postby Cyrothica » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:39 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Cyrothica wrote:And Palestine was a Jewish State. Even had a Jewish flag. The land was always Jewish. The arabs didn't lay claim to it until Egypt and Jordan begun exiling people. And Israel didn't carve the land - The U.K. did. And last I've checked, since Israel has it's own economy, army, seat in NATO and UN, which therefor makes it a nation by legal rights. Also if we're going to go by "Well since so and so invaded such and such, the land should be returned to the former citizens" then let's apply this to Canada, U.S., Europe, China, Korea, and so on if thats how the game is gonna be played.

Arabs were the majority in every part of Palestine except Jaffa.

Is that why the Palestinian flag was the star of david? Is that why Palestinian athletes had mainly Jewish features? Sorry, but no.
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Ors Might
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Postby Ors Might » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:39 pm

Petrasylvania wrote:Trump just approved Israel ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.

Source?

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Deian salazar
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Postby Deian salazar » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:39 pm

Cyrothica wrote:
Deian salazar wrote:Palestine was promised independence from the Brits.
Specifically in Jerusalem and the rest of modern Israel.
The Brits f*cked up and the USA is just making it worse.

How's it worse when clearly the Jews established their own nation? Yeah the IDF can be brutal, but if you had a bunch of shitheads as your neighbor, I'm sure you'd want your military to be just as brutal as they are. And as I've stated before, Palestine pre 1960's were Jewish anyway, all they did was change the name of their country. A bunch of jews didn't just look at the news paper and go "Oh! Time to go steal some land before it gets claimed!" Sorry dude, but Israel is a sovereign country whether you like it or not.

What about War Crimes?
Also no, the Palestinians were promised a country by the Brits and got it in 1947.
And I don't dislike Israel, I'm neutral due to my (Christian) religious beliefs(specifically revelations). However I do think being Anti-Jewish and Anti-Israel is an overreaction personally but I respect that belief. I'm not opposing Israel nor supporting the Arab states, I'm just stating this will strain relations and cause issues, hurt the Israel-Palestinian peace process, and give justification for some diplomatic actions and that's why it is a f*ck up.

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Kennlind
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Postby Kennlind » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:40 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Kennlind wrote:No they're not. 1) They're defending their country, 2) Hamas actively target civilians.

1) So is Hamas.
2) So does the IDF.

1) Hamas are a terrorist group. Even the PLO don't like them.
2) No they don't. They target terrorists. Civilians get caught in the crossfire because Hamas use them as human shields.
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Postby The Greater Ohio Valley » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:41 pm

I guess a bunch of evangelicals in America will be happy now that the supposed apocalypse and Jesus’ return is one step closer to ‘reality’.
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Postby Aillyria » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 pm

Trumptonium wrote:Good.

Though the 3 sites (Holy Sepulchre, Dome and Wailing Wall) should become governed by the UN with free access to everybody.

But Jerusalem is and should remain Israel's capital, recognised by all.

Anything that pisses off the Islamic world is just a bonus, and anything that enrages European & American Muslims to rage and riot is politically beneficial.

Yes, make the holy city of 3 religions the capitol of a genocidal zionist "nation" that exists on land stolen from the natives within living memory.
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Postby Alliance of Free Planets » Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 pm

Ors Might wrote:
Petrasylvania wrote:Trump just approved Israel ethnically cleansing the Palestinians.

Source?

He is inferring that approving that Jerusalem is israel’s Capital, trump is indirectly allowing Israel to ethnically cleanse the Palestinians
Last edited by Alliance of Free Planets on Wed Dec 06, 2017 1:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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