Trump just recognized Jerusalem as Israel's Capital

[Baltenstein]

We have done that for quite a few, certainly.

There's a whole ton more we could be doing. Are we going to break up South Africa and create an Afrikaner nation? What about Burma and that one people group I can't remember the name? Natives in the US?

I strongly support the principle of national self-determination. If an ethnic group inside a territory genuinely wants to split off and become their own thing, they should be allowed to do so.

Sure, but it wasn't really their territory. They were very much a minority yet they got half the territory iirc. Seems a bit silly imo.

It wasnt the Palestinians territory either. Sure, the Brits didnt do a stellar job with carving up the territory, however the idea of an idependent Jewish state and an independent Arab state in the former madate was, and still is, the most logical choice.
Of course the united Arab nations then had to go and screw everything up in the worst imaginable - for the Palestinians, that is - way.

[The Parkus Empire]

Why? Are we also going to start carving out nations for every other group?

Every group that isn't protected by any nation has the right to.

The problem is that it is only countries that truly have the power to enforce human rights, so in reality if no nationstate seeks to defend a marginalized group's rights it is a predecessor to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Look at what happens to the Rohingya now.

Should Israel permit immigration of non-Jews?

[Kibbutz Unions]

Every group that isn't protected by any nation has the right to.

The problem is that it is only countries that truly have the power to enforce human rights, so in reality if no nationstate seeks to defend a marginalized group's rights it is a predecessor to ethnic cleansing and genocide.
Look at what happens to the Rohingya now.

Should Israel permit immigration of non-Jews?

In my opinion, yes. Refugees who need protection in particular.

[The Parkus Empire]

Should Israel permit immigration of non-Jews?

In my opinion, yes. Refugees who need protection in particular.

I am not talking about refugees (which is a somewhat arbitrary category), but immigrants, period

[Kibbutz Unions]

In my opinion, yes. Refugees who need protection in particular.

I am not talking about refugees (which is a somewhat arbitrary category), but immigrants, period

Depending I guess. I am against Capitalist immigration (AKA corporations bringing cheap labor to maximize profit) but if let's say we're talking about people who really identify with Israel and want to be part of it then yeah I am OK with it.

[The Parkus Empire]

I am not talking about refugees (which is a somewhat arbitrary category), but immigrants, period

Depending I guess. I am against Capitalist immigration (AKA corporations bringing cheap labor to maximize profit) but if let's say we're talking about people who really identify with Israel and want to be part of it then yeah I am OK with it.

You mean converts?

[Kibbutz Unions]

Depending I guess. I am against Capitalist immigration (AKA corporations bringing cheap labor to maximize profit) but if let's say we're talking about people who really identify with Israel and want to be part of it then yeah I am OK with it.

You mean converts?

No, they don't need to be Jewish.

By the way, how is that relevant to the topic?

[The Parkus Empire]

You mean converts?

No, they don't need to be Jewish.

By the way, how is that relevant to the topic?

It is relevant to whether or not Israel is a Jewish state, which is the root of controversy here.

[Kibbutz Unions]

No, they don't need to be Jewish.

By the way, how is that relevant to the topic?

It is relevant to whether or not Israel is a Jewish state, which is the root of controversy here.

I don't need Israel to be a "Jewish State" in any way but the fact that Jews live here and that it serves as a safe haven to Jews around the world who seek to escape from antisemitism.
I don't believe in nationalism, and as of currently the only value of the nationstate in my opinion is that it can be used to defend weakened and marginalized groups.

[The Parkus Empire]

It is relevant to whether or not Israel is a Jewish state, which is the root of controversy here.

I don't need Israel to be a "Jewish State" in any way but the fact that Jews live here and that it serves as a safe haven to Jews around the world who seek to escape from antisemitism.
I don't believe in nationalism, and as of currently the only value of the nationstate in my opinion is that it can be used to defend weakened and marginalized groups.

Then, when a group ceases to be marginalized, should they cease to have a nationstate?

[Kibbutz Unions]

I don't need Israel to be a "Jewish State" in any way but the fact that Jews live here and that it serves as a safe haven to Jews around the world who seek to escape from antisemitism.
I don't believe in nationalism, and as of currently the only value of the nationstate in my opinion is that it can be used to defend weakened and marginalized groups.

Then, when a group ceases to be marginalized, should they cease to have a nationstate?

The nationstate apparatus isn't going anywhere, it's just that it then ceases to have any special obligations towards those groups and should only be used as a mechanism for wide-scale cooperation and, in my opinion, the apparatus that should enforce collective ownership over the means of production.

[The Parkus Empire]

Then, when a group ceases to be marginalized, should they cease to have a nationstate?

The nationstate apparatus isn't going anywhere, it's just that it then ceases to have any special obligations towards those groups and should only be used as a mechanism for wide-scale cooperation and, in my opinion, the apparatus that should enforce collective ownership over the means of production.

States represent groups.

[Kibbutz Unions]

The nationstate apparatus isn't going anywhere, it's just that it then ceases to have any special obligations towards those groups and should only be used as a mechanism for wide-scale cooperation and, in my opinion, the apparatus that should enforce collective ownership over the means of production.

States represent groups.

Yes. But ideally it should represent the working class rather than a race, ethnic group or so on. However it should defend ethnic and religious groups that are threatened too.

[The Parkus Empire]

States represent groups.

Yes. But ideally it should represent the working class rather than a race, ethnic group or so on. However it should defend ethnic and religious groups that are threatened too.

Ah, it makes more sense for it to represent relatively homogenous culture and values.

[Kibbutz Unions]

Yes. But ideally it should represent the working class rather than a race, ethnic group or so on. However it should defend ethnic and religious groups that are threatened too.

Ah, it makes more sense for it to represent relatively homogenous culture and values.

The vast majority of countries are not homogenous. Plus, supporting a hegemonic group is only going to lead to the oppression (And cultural disappearance) of the weaker ones. The strong doesn't need defending, the weak does.

[Shikihara]

For a "fake nation," they're quite unified and managed to beat "real nations" quite a number of times.

Despite those "real nations" constantly ganging up on Israel together, Israel has managed to very effectively defend itself from invasion. Frankly, I need to know how Israel really does it, I could use the help in my Civilization and Civilization Revolution games. Deity level is freaking impossible.

Allah apparently does not favor the Muslims.

[The Parkus Empire]

Ah, it makes more sense for it to represent relatively homogenous culture and values.

The vast majority of countries are not homogenous. Plus, supporting a hegemonic group is only going to lead to the oppression (And cultural disappearance) of the weaker ones. The strong doesn't need defending, the weak does.

You are going to have an hegemony of values no matter what, as law is impossible without them. Among a population of devout Muslims, those values will be different than among a population of nonreligious Japanese.

[Sovaal]

...More elite support for the fake nation of Israel.

I'm aware this is VERY old, it's just that...


If Israel is internationally recognized...doesn't that make it a real nation?

Yes, no matter how much some wish otherwise.

[Shikihara]

The vast majority of countries are not homogenous. Plus, supporting a hegemonic group is only going to lead to the oppression (And cultural disappearance) of the weaker ones. The strong doesn't need defending, the weak does.

You are going to have an hegemony of values no matter what, as law is impossible without them. Among a population of devout Muslims, those values will be different than a population of nonreligious Japanese.

TFW this meme about the Japanese being non-religious is still around.

[Sovaal]

Despite those "real nations" constantly ganging up on Israel together, Israel has managed to very effectively defend itself from invasion. Frankly, I need to know how Israel really does it, I could use the help in my Civilization and Civilization Revolution games. Deity level is freaking impossible.

Allah apparently does not favor the Muslims.

I mean I don't think any god has ever helped out during a holy war. take that as you will.

[Kibbutz Unions]

The vast majority of countries are not homogenous. Plus, supporting a hegemonic group is only going to lead to the oppression (And cultural disappearance) of the weaker ones. The strong doesn't need defending, the weak does.

You are going to have an hegemony of values no matter what, as law is impossible without them. Among a population of devout Muslims, those values will be different than among a population of nonreligious Japanese.

I don't think you really get what I tried to say.
Hegemony exists, there is no reason to force a nation to be homogeneous to protect the hegemonic culture as it is already dominant and doesn't require protection unlike other minority cultures.
So for example, "European culture" (In this case I particularly talk about Anglophone culture) doesn't need the state apparatus to uphold it because it is the most influential and widespread culture in history. On the other hand, native american culture needs to be defended and protected because it might disappear otherwise.

[The Parkus Empire]

You are going to have an hegemony of values no matter what, as law is impossible without them. Among a population of devout Muslims, those values will be different than among a population of nonreligious Japanese.

I don't think you really get what I tried to say.
Hegemony exists, there is no reason to force a nation to be homogeneous to protect the hegemonic culture as it is already dominant and doesn't require protection unlike other minority cultures.
So for example, "European culture" (In this case I particularly talk about Anglophone culture) doesn't need the state apparatus to uphold it because it is the most influential and widespread culture in history. On the other hand, native american culture needs to be defended and protected because it might disappear otherwise.

I see where you are coming from.

The problem is that you seem to think the state is "beyond" values, as opposed to an apparatus which expresses values.

[Kibbutz Unions]

I don't think you really get what I tried to say.
Hegemony exists, there is no reason to force a nation to be homogeneous to protect the hegemonic culture as it is already dominant and doesn't require protection unlike other minority cultures.
So for example, "European culture" (In this case I particularly talk about Anglophone culture) doesn't need the state apparatus to uphold it because it is the most influential and widespread culture in history. On the other hand, native american culture needs to be defended and protected because it might disappear otherwise.

I see where you are coming from.

The problem is that you seem to think the state is "beyond" values, as opposed to an apparatus which expresses values.

The state is based on values and philosophy, however they don't have to be 'national values'. A state can be created around values of justice, morality and progress for example- not necessarily be the instrument of an ethnic group to maintain its' culture hegemony.

[The Parkus Empire]

I see where you are coming from.

The problem is that you seem to think the state is "beyond" values, as opposed to an apparatus which expresses values.

The state is based on values and philosophy, however they don't have to be 'national values'. A state can be created around values of justice, morality and progress for example- not necessarily be the instrument of an ethnic group to maintain its' culture hegemony.

Haha, how are you going to abstract those values from culture? Especially since "Whig history" is purely Western

[Kibbutz Unions]

The state is based on values and philosophy, however they don't have to be 'national values'. A state can be created around values of justice, morality and progress for example- not necessarily be the instrument of an ethnic group to maintain its' culture hegemony.

Haha, how are you going to abstract those values from culture? Especially since "Whig history" is purely Western

When people talk about "national values" they talk about the ceremonial characteristics of a national group. Every piece of philosophy is written in a certain context but it will be pretty silly to believe that Marxism for example is part of "German Culture" because Karl Marx was born in Germany.