Trump just recognized Jerusalem as Israel's Capital

[Principality of the Raix]

Good for Trump...

"Don't say this thing because it will anger Muslims and incite violence" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. It's literally obeying the demands of terrorists - proving they've achieved their goal!

Agreed.

[Conserative Morality]

A purely ethnically Jewish and a purely ethnically Palestinian state, founded simultaneously in 1947, with the international community making sure that both sides wouldn't try to REMOVEKEBAB each other would have prevented a lot of hate and suffering.
It sounds nasty to us now, but in several cases of the first half of the 20th Century, sending ethnic groups to different corners of the room really helped to permanently defuse tension between the two groups in the long run. Examples include Greeks/Turks post 1922, and the German minorities throughout Eastern Europe post-1945. It was a horrible tragedy for the individuals and families affected, but obviously preferable to the ethnic groups as a whole being locked in bloody conflict.

Might've had a better chance if the Palestinians hadn't felt stiffed by the whole affair. And tbh, I don't think it would have prevented anything. Israel would have reached roughly its present borders after some war or another with Palestine. If anything, a 'purer' Jewish state probably would've made things even worse for Arabs caught in their land.

[Neutraligon]

I don't seem to recall the Jews planning on kicking the Palestinains out of their homes. In fact I seem to recall a great deal of Arabs pushing the Palestinians to leave so they could massacre the Jews. Until then, the land was not Palestinian...it was british.

Of course, I could be forgetting my admittedly very long ago learned history.

As has been said, both occurred.

Please, don't mistake me. Neither side was particularly good in goals or methods. I just find the hagiography of Israel's history to be disturbing and dangerous.

Land they purchased from the legitimate landowners, or otherwise reclaimed from literal desert and established well-functioning, prosperous communities.

Meanwhile the Palestinians were pushing for a literal monocultural and ethnically homogeneous superstate in the Middle-East along with vast swathes of the Arabic demographic.

>> ignoring the fact that Pan-Arab types were hated by the large amount of Palestinian nationalists

Yep, all them A-rabs is just the same. Fucking hivemind.

Oh I agree that neither side really had the moral high ground and that all to often the way it is taught is indeed very much pro-Israel creation. There was terrorism going on when talking about the Jews, and the Arab land owners where often treated like shit by the groups moving in post WW2.

[Principality of the Raix]

The state of Israel can be thought of as a successor state to the Biblical Israel, because Israel would not have won independence without in part, divine intervention from Yahweh. At least, I think that is how they defeated all of their Arab neighbors invading them with what was then superior weaponry.

Answer: Better tactics, organization, Coordination, etc.
Prussia and UK won a similar victory in the 7 year's war.

Yep, which led to WW1 and then WW2 because of hitler, but ww1 due to Europe could not handle Prussia's brilliance.

[Conserative Morality]

Didn't stop them from allying with them THREE TIMES to exterminate the Jews. :^)

Tell me more about how the innumerable times we worked with the SovUnion on common causes makes America Grade-A Commies.

[Principality of the Raix]

I can only agree, as this is true as it occurred within the Soviet Union. If you look at the U.S.S.R leadership there is no "pure" russians, only jews and jewish russians running the country.

Not Stalin, Krushchev, etc.

Actually stalin is half jewish, not full jew. But half. Read the link above first commentary on this page.

[MERIZoC]

Yup, good old BRITISH land, Palestine, the homeland of the BRITISH people, that they have peacefully owned for millennia.

Whether or not they owned it for millennia is irrelevant, the fact was it was British land, the same way before the USA came into existence America was partially British land. Well, unless you want to consider prior claims, but then why stop at the Arab occupation of a once Jewish area?

Jewish diaspora started thousands of years ago, the Arabs were, for all intents and purposes, one of the native groups of the regions that were oppressed under Ottoman and then British imperialism. The suggestion that Britain had some kind of legitimate claim to it is insane.

[Principality of the Raix]

So basically, invading Israel is suicide.

It's like invading Prussia in the 1700's after they took Silesia: It's stupid, and it's not worth it.

Yep

[Neutraligon]

Then I am forgetting my history. I do recall the later, I am trying to recall the former and when precisely such plans where laid.

Factors involved in the exodus include Jewish military advances, destruction of Arab villages, psychological warfare, and fears of another massacre by Zionist militias after the Deir Yassin massacre, which caused many to leave out of panic; direct expulsion orders by Israeli authorities; the voluntary self-removal of the wealthier classes; collapse in Palestinian leadership and Arab evacuation orders, and an unwillingness to live under Jewish control.

Oh yeah, that jogged my memory. Thanks!

[Conserative Morality]

Oh I agree that neither side really had the moral high ground and that all to often the way it is taught is indeed very much pro-Israel creation. There was terrorism going on when talking about the Jews, and the Arab land owners where often treated like shit by the groups moving in post WW2.

On the upside, Truman got to say "I am Cyrus" which is pretty badass.

[Principality of the Raix]

Oh I agree that neither side really had the moral high ground and that all to often the way it is taught is indeed very much pro-Israel creation. There was terrorism going on when talking about the Jews, and the Arab land owners where often treated like shit by the groups moving in post WW2.

On the upside, Truman got to say "I am Cyrus" which is pretty badass.

Uh.. thing is people have been claiming him as Cyrus just based off his name, as I guess Donald translates to ruler of the world and Trump aka Trumpet and triumph a play on words per se. However, now we will just see more people claiming that.

Edited: Misread, you said Truman, thought ya said trump. Lol.

[Baltenstein]

The 1968 state campaign against Zionism had absolutely fuck all with the wider Soviet policy (FYI USSR was in favour of, and the greatest ally of, Israel, from 1948 to 1967)

The anti-zionist campaign was a pet project of Moczar, a Partisan. AKA an ultranationlist communist. The enemies of the Partisans inside the communist politics were Muskowici, otherwise known as Polish Jews who escaped to the USSR during WW2 and were trained by Stalin before returning to Poland to take on secret police and general repression jobs inside the government once Poland was occupied, because Stalin distrusted ethnic Poles. Once the Khruschev era started, hell started raining down on them with a shitton of show trials, followed by a general, gradual, move towards anti-Jew policies as a whole. His new secret police unit began screening all Jews and people of Jewish origin for 'hidden zionist' agenda when it came to institutional jobs.

They were also a play to the general persistent antisemitic feeling among the Polish populace, as Moczar was trying to stand for the next First Secretary through deposing Gomulka whom he had fallen out with, and getting popular support was a good idea for the future.

In 1948, 40% of UB operatives (Polish secret police) were Jewish, all directly imported from the USSR, all Polish. [*]. This pretext allowed people like Moczar to get rid of Jews once Stalin fucked off where he belongs.

Most of the hate was directed towards Appendix A. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilary_Minc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakub_Berman

Let me just quote directly from Wiki as that's what you only do anyway


Again, stop talking about Poland when clearly your entire knowledge of events in Polish history is skim reading the wiki pages.

This explains it better than I can
http://poland.museumoncommunism.org/poland/bios/moczar

Or this in particular

Moczar was a clever puppet master, pulling strings secretively behind the scenes and staging conditions that would eventually depose Party Secretary Gomułka. He nearly succeeded in becoming Communist Party Secretary in 1968 and only failed after the December 1970 revolt on the Baltic Coast because he was unacceptable to the Russians. In 1968, the security apparatus under Moczar used the student strikes to unleash the so-called “anti-Zionist” campaign as a smoke screen to cleanse the Party and the army of the Muscovites, Polish communists, including a contingent of Jews that survived WWII and the Stalinist purges in the Soviet Union, forcing hundreds top officials to resign or be replaced.

Seen by some as an internal Party squabble, the campaign cast a wide net, forcing expulsions from cultural organizations, film and entertainment industry and academia, but most crudely touching the lives of ordinary citizens. Nearly 20,000 [13,300 according to Institute of National Remembrance] Poles of Jewish descent had to relinquish their Polish citizenship and leave their homeland on one-way exit documents, mostly to United States, France and Scandinavia.

The Moczar faction of hard-liners from the ranks of SB and Union of Combatants for Freedom and Democracy backed the military solution in Czechoslovakia to eradicate revisionism in 1968 and martial law in Poland in 1981. In 1970, Moczar’s “partisans” forced Gomułka’s downfall while the instability and chaos they helped create on the Baltic Coast were calculated to prevent the Soviets from intervening in Poland’s “internal affairs.” In A History of Poland Oscar Halecki observed: “At least 500 people lost their lives and civil war seemed near.” The staging of events by the secret police to secure political power was characteristic of communist societies.

Interesting. So Stalin was handing over control of the Polish state to a hand-picked group of Jewish cadres, discriminating against ethnic Poles in their own country, while at the same time he was terrorizing the Jews in the USSR in the context of the Doctor's Plot?
That sounds...very like him, actually.

[Neutraligon]

Whether or not they owned it for millennia is irrelevant, the fact was it was British land, the same way before the USA came into existence America was partially British land. Well, unless you want to consider prior claims, but then why stop at the Arab occupation of a once Jewish area?

Jewish diaspora started thousands of years ago,

So? If you are going to say so about the British I can so say about when the Diaspora occurred. I repeat, so?

It is no more insance then accepting that 1000 year ago Diaspora makes the Arab claim any more legitimate.

[Sanctissima]

Didn't stop them from allying with them THREE TIMES to exterminate the Jews. :^)

Tell me more about how the innumerable times we worked with the SovUnion on common causes makes America Grade-A Commies.

Because the US worked with the USSR to defeat literal Nazis, not to "exterminate the evil Zionist Jews".

[Principality of the Raix]

This explains it better than I can
http://poland.museumoncommunism.org/poland/bios/moczar

Or this in particular

Interesting. So Stalin was handing over control of the Polish state to a hand-picked group of Jewish cadres, discriminating against ethnic Poles in their own country, while at the same time he was terrorizing the Jews in the USSR in the context of the Doctor's Plot?
That sounds...very like him, actually.

Yep

[Proctopeo]

Good.
Jerusalem is, after all, Israel's actual capital.

[Collatis]

I'm sure Conserative Morality will be overjoyed to have your support.

I am a conservative, but look up Stalin as a Jew and the only thing that is attempting to debunk it Is someone who states not being an expert at Georgian or Russia in general. In the end, it is your own opinion, like mine goes with what is given; Stalin was half jewish.

Your link makes no mention of Stalin supposedly being Jewish, and in fact mentions his various actions to oppress the Jews. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Stalin was Jewish, and his antisemitism and his actions seem to show the exact opposite. "Your opinion" is based on nothing but conspiracy theories.

[Principality of the Raix]

Good.
Jerusalem is, after all, Israel's actual capital.

Yep, agreed.

[Ostroeuropa]

Good.
Jerusalem is, after all, Israel's actual capital.

Facts don't count when it comes to offending religious people, and offending muslim religious people is a terrible thing nobody should do, so sayeth the tolerant left.

Again.
The earth goes round the sun.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

[Principality of the Raix]

I am a conservative, but look up Stalin as a Jew and the only thing that is attempting to debunk it Is someone who states not being an expert at Georgian or Russia in general. In the end, it is your own opinion, like mine goes with what is given; Stalin was half jewish.

Your link makes no mention of Stalin supposedly being Jewish, and in fact mentions his various actions to oppress the Jews. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Stalin was Jewish, and his antisemitism and his actions seem to show the exact opposite. "Your opinion" is based on nothing but conspiracy theories.

Uh, being within the jewish link means he is a jew. Or are you ignorant on this fact? The jews only place jews in their jewish historia. Aka read the link, Jewish virtual library.

[Ostroeuropa]

Your link makes no mention of Stalin supposedly being Jewish, and in fact mentions his various actions to oppress the Jews. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that Stalin was Jewish, and his antisemitism and his actions seem to show the exact opposite. "Your opinion" is based on nothing but conspiracy theories.

Uh, being within the jewish link means he is a jew. Or are you ignorant on this fact? The jews only place jews in their jewish historia.

...
Hitler?

To clarify, I'm not asking if you're him, i'm asking if you think Hitler was a Jew because Jews have him in their history books.

[Principality of the Raix]

Uh, being within the jewish link means he is a jew. Or are you ignorant on this fact? The jews only place jews in their jewish historia.

...
Hitler?

Is hitler on the site?

Edited: not a surprise as he was claimed as an Austrian Jew.

[Valrifell]

Good.
Jerusalem is, after all, Israel's actual capital.

Facts don't count when it comes to offending religious people, and offending muslim religious people is a terrible thing nobody should do, so sayeth the tolerant left.

Again.
The earth goes round the sun.
Jerusalem is the capital of Israel.

I think the fear of something like another oil embargo is pretty reasonable, and the desire to keep friendly relations with Arabs in the Middle East also fairly reasonable.

This is regardless of whether or not Jerusalem is or isn't de facto the Israeli capital, of course it is, but that doesn't matter when playing politics.

[Baltenstein]

Might've had a better chance if the Palestinians hadn't felt stiffed by the whole affair. And tbh, I don't think it would have prevented anything. Israel would have reached roughly its present borders after some war or another with Palestine.

Hence my mentioning of the international community ensuring that - read this in the voice of John Cleese as Jewish high priest - "NOBODY GETS TO ATTACK ANYBODY!"
Or at least "trying to ensure".

[MERIZoC]

Imagine there being verifiable proof that dozens of Soviet leaders were Jews and you try to make your point with Stalin lol. Like at least try with the anti-semitism