Gun Control: Shiny Toy Guns

[Zyr and Pony]

"Gun grabber." Good to know that the best you've got is nicknames. Again, prove that gun control advocates want to ban guns.

No one has proven it as far as I can tell, yet you people keep up the nicknaming crap as if it proves anything.

Who said that's the best we got? Near as I can tell, we got statistics and law on our side.

Old post, but let's have some fun. Here are the statistics that the pro-gun side doesdn't want you to hear.

Defensive gun ownership is much rarer than pro-gun people claim. 269 in 2015. Not 269k, 269 total justifiable homocides were reported nationwide in 2015, while there were 1.2 million violent crimes

Guns don't make you safer. source 2

Switzerland, which the pro-gun people love to cite, have universal background checks (no gun show loophole here), a requirement that all guns be unloaded while not in use. Now I know that correlation doesn't equal causation, but it is interesting to note that, while they have the loosest gun laws, and highest crime rates in Western Europe, they are tighter than gun laws in the US, and the murder rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

So, not all (or even the most critical) statistics are in your favor.

Edit: BTW, YourLogicalFallacyIs.com, which I linked to the burden of proof page for earlier is cited in the first stop for general thread stickied to the top. Just something I should note, I think

[Telconi]

Who said that's the best we got? Near as I can tell, we got statistics and law on our side.

Old post, but let's have some fun. Here are the statistics that the pro-gun side doesdn't want you to hear.

Defensive gun ownership is much rarer than pro-gun people claim. 269 in 2015. Not 269k, 269 total justifiable homocides were reported nationwide in 2015, while there were 1.2 million violent crimes

Guns don't make you safer. source 2

Switzerland, which the pro-gun people love to cite, have universal background checks (no gun show loophole here), a requirement that all guns be unloaded while not in use. Now I know that correlation doesn't equal causation, but it is interesting to note that, while they have the loosest gun laws, and highest crime rates in Western Europe, they are tighter than gun laws in the US, and the murder rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

So, not all (or even the most critical) statistics are in your favor.

Edit: BTW, YourLogicalFallacyIs.com, which I linked to the burden of proof page for earlier is cited in the first stop for general thread stickied to the top. Just something I should note, I think

I suppose you have non cherry picked numbers for defensive gun uses?

[Zyr and Pony]

Old post, but let's have some fun. Here are the statistics that the pro-gun side doesdn't want you to hear.

Defensive gun ownership is much rarer than pro-gun people claim. 269 in 2015. Not 269k, 269 total justifiable homocides were reported nationwide in 2015, while there were 1.2 million violent crimes

Guns don't make you safer. source 2

Switzerland, which the pro-gun people love to cite, have universal background checks (no gun show loophole here), a requirement that all guns be unloaded while not in use. Now I know that correlation doesn't equal causation, but it is interesting to note that, while they have the loosest gun laws, and highest crime rates in Western Europe, they are tighter than gun laws in the US, and the murder rate is a tiny fraction of ours.

So, not all (or even the most critical) statistics are in your favor.

Edit: BTW, YourLogicalFallacyIs.com, which I linked to the burden of proof page for earlier is cited in the first stop for general thread stickied to the top. Just something I should note, I think

I suppose you have non cherry picked numbers for defensive gun uses?

How is that cherry picked?

(you claimed it, you prove it. I'm not going to go round and round about sources or such nonsense either, if you have a source that debunks mine, post it, otherwise you're safely ignored)

[Telconi]

I suppose you have non cherry picked numbers for defensive gun uses?

How is that cherry picked?

(you claimed it, you prove it. I'm not going to go round and round about sources or such nonsense either, if you have a source that debunks mine, post it, otherwise you're safely ignored)

They all use recorded instances of justified homicide as the number of "defensive gun uses"

[Vassenor]

How is that cherry picked?

(you claimed it, you prove it. I'm not going to go round and round about sources or such nonsense either, if you have a source that debunks mine, post it, otherwise you're safely ignored)

They all use recorded instances of justified homicide as the number of "defensive gun uses"

How so?

[Zyr and Pony]

How is that cherry picked?

(you claimed it, you prove it. I'm not going to go round and round about sources or such nonsense either, if you have a source that debunks mine, post it, otherwise you're safely ignored)

They all use recorded instances of justified homicide as the number of "defensive gun uses"

Point taken, kinda.

How about this study (pdf) that says that less than 1% of all victims of nonfatal violent crimes used guns to defend themselves? I'd love more recent statistics, though, if they're available.

[Gun Manufacturers]

What?

If you're deaf then you don't get a gun license.

Another example of my humor not translating to the internet.

[The Two Jerseys]

If you're deaf then you don't get a gun license.

Another example of my humor not translating to the internet.

What? Speak up!

[Telconi]

They all use recorded instances of justified homicide as the number of "defensive gun uses"

Point taken, kinda.

How about this study (pdf) that says that less than 1% of all victims of nonfatal violent crimes used guns to defend themselves? I'd love more recent statistics, though, if they're available.

That's some more information, but the whole "defensive gun use" thing seems hard to peg, I highly doubt my situation is average, but I could relate over a dozen times when I personally have used a firearm to end or prevent a likely violent confrontation.

Was I in any mortal danger in any of those, I don't know for certain honestly, I believed I was at the time, but I can't see the future. I never once fired a shot, and there were no police reports or newspaper articles to document any of them.

[Torrocca]

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

[Vassenor]

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

Because something about tyranny.

[Len Hyet]

Okay, meteor time.

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?

They all use recorded instances of justified homicide as the number of "defensive gun uses"

Point taken, kinda.

How about this study (pdf) that says that less than 1% of all victims of nonfatal violent crimes used guns to defend themselves? I'd love more recent statistics, though, if they're available.

The CDC found that those studies that directly assess defensive gun usage in the US consistently find higher rates of defensive usage than criminal usage, ranging from 500,000 to 3,000,000 uses per year.

[Torrocca]

Okay, meteor time.

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?

But then you argue at us like we're arguing for those laws.

[Len Hyet]

Okay, meteor time.



Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?

But then you argue at us like we're arguing for those laws.

Well, unless I'm misremembering this thread, you have, several times.

Full disclosure I could be misremembering, this is not the only gun control debate I'm floating around in.

[Kernen]

Okay, meteor time.



Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?

But then you argue at us like we're arguing for those laws.

The last few times we comprimised, we got screwed. Compromise time is over.

[Vassenor]

Okay, meteor time.

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?

Point taken, kinda.

How about this study (pdf) that says that less than 1% of all victims of nonfatal violent crimes used guns to defend themselves? I'd love more recent statistics, though, if they're available.

The CDC found that those studies that directly assess defensive gun usage in the US consistently find higher rates of defensive usage than criminal usage, ranging from 500,000 to 3,000,000 uses per year.

So what are the proven positive effects of arming teachers?

[Len Hyet]

Okay, meteor time.



Well usually because the laws that "keep guns out of the people at risk" are over-broad, ill-defined, have no proven positive effects, and look suspiciously like attempts to disarm the population.

What do I win?


The CDC found that those studies that directly assess defensive gun usage in the US consistently find higher rates of defensive usage than criminal usage, ranging from 500,000 to 3,000,000 uses per year.

So what are the proven positive effects of arming teachers?

shrug

I don't know, I've never advocated that policy, which means I've yet to do the necessary research on it.

[Torrocca]

But then you argue at us like we're arguing for those laws.

The last few times we comprimised, we got screwed. Compromise time is over.

Screwed how, exactly?

[Grinning Dragon]

Here we have a student who is alleging that CNN had handed out scripted questions. Does it surprise me? Not all that much, after all "if it bleeds, it leads".
Shooting Survivor: CNN Gave Me "Scripted Question" After Denying Question About Armed Guards

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student Colton Haab said he was approached by CNN to ask a question at Wednesday night's town hall but decided not to after the network gave him a "scripted question," quashing one he wrote himself. Haab, a member of the Junior ROTC shielded students while the school was under attack from the shooter, said he was going to ask about using veterans as armed security guards.

IMO, from the onset it became clear, major news orgs were more interested in presenting one side very heavily over the other.

[Big Jim P]

Guns should be replaced by swords...


Just so we can prove that guns aren't the problem, but people are.

I could dig open carry of a Katana, sure! Or a Wakizashi when the size of the Katana isn't really practical.

I'll stick with my European swords. Otherwise, agreed.

Of course, carrying swords id now legal in Texas.

[Vassenor]

Here we have a student who is alleging that CNN had handed out scripted questions. Does it surprise me? Not all that much, after all "if it bleeds, it leads".
Shooting Survivor: CNN Gave Me "Scripted Question" After Denying Question About Armed Guards

Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School student Colton Haab said he was approached by CNN to ask a question at Wednesday night's town hall but decided not to after the network gave him a "scripted question," quashing one he wrote himself. Haab, a member of the Junior ROTC shielded students while the school was under attack from the shooter, said he was going to ask about using veterans as armed security guards.

IMO, from the onset it became clear, major news orgs were more interested in presenting one side very heavily over the other.

But when Trump gives a blatantly scripted Q&A session that's perfectly OK.

Also has he offered any proof beyond just saying that they did?

[Gig em Aggies]

Here we have a student who is alleging that CNN had handed out scripted questions. Does it surprise me? Not all that much, after all "if it bleeds, it leads".
Shooting Survivor: CNN Gave Me "Scripted Question" After Denying Question About Armed Guards



IMO, from the onset it became clear, major news orgs were more interested in presenting one side very heavily over the other.

But when Trump gives a blatantly scripted Q&A session that's perfectly OK.

Also has he offered any proof beyond just saying that they did?

Giving scripted questions to a government official so he doesn't spill beans on something he should is standard practice in almost every country on earth. What isn't standard is a news studio giving a school shooting survivor scripted questions and act like their not.

[Sovaal]

Y'know, the funniest part of this thread I've realized is how utterly divided everyone is that it's either Pro-gun or pro-gun control when it could easily be both. If you're a law abiding, mentally sound citizen who's pro-gun, why should you fear legislation designed to keep guns out of the hands of people at risk?

Because the law isn’t some perfect thing. I don’t fear it per say, I do feel that any legislation would have to be carefully worded. Which I doubt any would be.

That and AWBs are retarded.

[Big Jim P]

I think the problem with the whole running off to ban guns every time a mass shooting happens is the argument seems to forget all about the lunatics behind the guns. Lunatics who would probably be inclined to use other approaches to kill loads of people(bombs, poisoning water/food, running around with a knife, etc.). And yeah, sure, you could say that maybe without guns it'd be more difficult to kill a bunch of people, but it most certainly wouldn't be impossible, and lunatics will find a way. And hell, in the most recent case, there were many warning signs that people could have picked up on (and in some cases did pick up on) and taken some kind of action on. Instead there was nothing.

Ah yes, the "it won't be 100% effective so we shouldn't do it" argument.

Which is the exact argument being put forward against arming teachers and providing armed security to schools.

[Grand Britannia]

Here we have a student who is alleging that CNN had handed out scripted questions. Does it surprise me? Not all that much, after all "if it bleeds, it leads".
Shooting Survivor: CNN Gave Me "Scripted Question" After Denying Question About Armed Guards



IMO, from the onset it became clear, major news orgs were more interested in presenting one side very heavily over the other.

But when Trump gives a blatantly scripted Q&A session that's perfectly OK.

Also has he offered any proof beyond just saying that they did?

Did you just compare a government official having a prepared message to a person from a shooting getting told what to say on TV.