Is it weakness to be terrified of war?

[Yagon]

Direct Response to the OP of this Forum:

To flee or not to flee. To flee means to delay death. Not to flee means to risk death. There is no shame in fleeing. But there is glory in staying put. Men fight for honor, respect and love of their country. To not fight is one of the options of a countless fog of decisions. To not fight means to cheer on those who were brave enough to stay put. Lets put it in an easier to digest way. Men flee. Men stay put. Men die. Men survive. There is no objective "right" or "wrong" in this situation. You can flee. You can live. But glory will not come to those who don't put up a fight. You could fight. You risk death while you fight. But glory comes to you if you fight. You may not be remembered long, but you will be remembered longer than the person who ran away. Choose whatever option appeals to you. Guaranteed life, or possible glory.

If I meet the shade of Achilles on my way home from the fight, what would he tell me?

[Yagon]

Spider Wars must be awesome..

The marching cadence must be beautiful...

[Farnhamia]

Direct Response to the OP of this Forum:

To flee or not to flee. To flee means to delay death. Not to flee means to risk death. There is no shame in fleeing. But there is glory in staying put. Men fight for honor, respect and love of their country. To not fight is one of the options of a countless fog of decisions. To not fight means to cheer on those who were brave enough to stay put. Lets put it in an easier to digest way. Men flee. Men stay put. Men die. Men survive. There is no objective "right" or "wrong" in this situation. You can flee. You can live. But glory will not come to those who don't put up a fight. You could fight. You risk death while you fight. But glory comes to you if you fight. You may not be remembered long, but you will be remembered longer than the person who ran away. Choose whatever option appeals to you. Guaranteed life, or possible glory.

If I meet the shade of Achilles on my way home from the fight, what would he tell me?

It depends on how much blood you have one you. Odysseus told me Achilles was not a happy camper.

[Bombadil]

For "honor" read "glory." And as General Sherman famously said, "There is many a boy here today who looks on war as all glory, but, boys, it is all hell."

I prefer the directness of Wilfred Owen..

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.

I went to Passchendaele last year, it was highly sobering to consider the miserable conditions of war; cold, shitty bunkers, mud everywhere, the constant uncertainty of life, the stark carnage.

People should be terrified of war, I can hardly think of one that was necessary.

[Yagon]

It depends on how much blood you have one you. Odysseus told me Achilles was not a happy camper.

In those ancient times, were the warriors a separate class? Would they have had social and cultural expectations different than those imposed on the commoners? I would imagine the commoners were pressed into war when necessary, I guess it was "fight the enemy or your own authorities will stab you" sometimes.

[Bombadil]

It depends on how much blood you have one you. Odysseus told me Achilles was not a happy camper.

In those ancient times, were the warriors a separate class? Would they have had social and cultural expectations different than those imposed on the commoners? I would imagine the commoners were pressed into war when necessary, I guess it was "fight the enemy or your own authorities will stab you" sometimes.

I think a lot of slaves were used in those times.

[Ethel mermania]

being terrified of war shows you are sane, if you are sane we can not exclude you from the war for not being sane.

its a hell of a catch, that catch 22

[Iebrelara]

No. It is weakness, however, to start wars and not finish them when the chances of your loss become uncomfortable.

[Baalkistann]

Try asking a soldier with PTSD that.

[Yagon]

being terrified of war shows you are sane, if you are sane we can not exclude you from the war for not being sane.

its a hell of a catch, that catch 22

I think I saw something in the news last week about US military standards regarding pre-existing mental health issues being loosened. I dunno if its true.

For some reason when I think of madness and the military, I think of Critical Bill from Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead.

[Yagon]

Try asking a soldier with PTSD that.

I have offered the question to a few people IRL who have been in combat (one was a pilot), and even those without PTSD indicated it was terrible.

They said they did have some colleagues who seemed to enjoy the experience and maneuvered themselves into career paths to increase the likelihood of exposure to it, but they were apparently in the minority.

[Ethel mermania]

being terrified of war shows you are sane, if you are sane we can not exclude you from the war for not being sane.

its a hell of a catch, that catch 22

I think I saw something in the news last week about US military standards regarding pre-existing mental health issues being loosened. I dunno if its true.

For some reason when I think of madness and the military, I think of Critical Bill from Things to Do in Denver When You're Dead.

never saw it, sounds like something i would like though

[Ethel mermania]

Try asking a soldier with PTSD that.

I have offered the question to a few people IRL who have been in combat (one was a pilot), and even those without PTSD indicated it was terrible.

They said they did have some colleagues who seemed to enjoy the experience and maneuvered themselves into career paths to increase the likelihood of exposure to it, but they were apparently in the minority.

most people, including hero's, have said they were scared.

[Yagon]

I have offered the question to a few people IRL who have been in combat (one was a pilot), and even those without PTSD indicated it was terrible.

They said they did have some colleagues who seemed to enjoy the experience and maneuvered themselves into career paths to increase the likelihood of exposure to it, but they were apparently in the minority.

most people, including hero's, have said they were scared.

It might seem even a bit worrying to be in a situation like that with someone who was blasé about it.

[Saiwania]

Shell shock is just another word for PTSD, and it is not good. Surprise surprise, psych. isn't your strong suit either...

No, it is a specific condition that is triggered by the rigors of modern warfare. It is being paralyzed by fear from being in the thick of gunfire, artillery, and so on. My closest experience is going to a gun range for the first time, was completely unprepared for how loud pistol, shotgun, and rifle fire is in person. Made me have full body convulsions and trembling, but in time the fear left me. You get used to it with enough prolonged exposure.

Shooters can wear ear protection, but the military generally doesn't have that luxury. It is a fact of life that firearms will in time- ruin your hearing.

[Yagon]

Shell shock is just another word for PTSD, and it is not good. Surprise surprise, psych. isn't your strong suit either...

No, it is a specific condition that is triggered by the rigors of modern warfare. It is being paralyzed by fear from being in the thick of gunfire, artillery, and so on. My closest experience is going to a gun range for the first time, was completely unprepared for how loud gun fire is in person. Made me have full body convulsions and trembling, but in time the fear left me. You get used to it with enough prolonged exposure.

Shooters can wear ear protection, but the military generally doesn't have that luxury. It is a fact of life that firearms will in time- ruin your hearing.

It may be that the loudness of the gunfire on a range where your life is not at risk may be a different order of magnitude to that associated with loud noises of people and devices actively trying to kill you.

The associated trauma may thus be very different between acclimating to loud noises as opposed to the trauma associated with war.

[The Liberated Territories]

Being afraid of war (i.e. certain death) is natural.

The real cowards are those who hide behind the state's monopoly on violence to enforce their beliefs on others.

[Saiwania]

It may be that the loudness of the gunfire on a range where your life is not at risk may be a different order of magnitude to that associated with loud noises of people and devices actively trying to kill you.

The associated trauma may thus be very different between acclimating to loud noises as opposed to the trauma associated with war.

Well yes, it is all relative. My example is one situation that is perhaps a very small taste, in an actual battle, that is of course scaled up to 10 times as severe, if not more- but it does come down to people not naturally being equipped to cope with the stresses that current weaponry brings to bear. Our evolution still has far more primitive weaponry in mind, such as swords, spears, or archery.

[Arkeyana]

Being afraid of war (i.e. certain death) is natural.

The real cowards are those who hide behind the state's monopoly on violence to enforce their beliefs on others.

Yep, that's the truth

[Yagon]

It may be that the loudness of the gunfire on a range where your life is not at risk may be a different order of magnitude to that associated with loud noises of people and devices actively trying to kill you.

The associated trauma may thus be very different between acclimating to loud noises as opposed to the trauma associated with war.

Well yes, it is all relative. My example is one situation that is perhaps a very small taste, in an actual battle, that is of course scaled up to 10 times as severe, if not more- but it does come down to people not naturally being equipped to cope with the stresses that current weaponry brings to bear. Our evolution still has far more primitive weaponry in mind, such as swords, spears, or archery.

I would think dying or observing someone dying by a sword, spear, or arrow may be just as brutal.

The difference between the experience on a range and on a battlefield is whether the sound (and the observed events) are associated with the risk of death or personal harm. I think this is more than a quantitative difference, it would be psychological qualitative.

I enjoy target shooting, I've experienced firearm discharges with and without hearing protection. Although there is a natural startling sense to it, I think it would be extremely different than what is involved with a war. The assumed premise of acclimation might not be as parallel as some may assume.

A promise that one would somehow get used to war because one can become accustomed to small arms fire is one I would not rely on.

[Arkeyana]

I'm sorry, a terrible race?

The old cliché of humans sucking. Edgy.

I'm not edgy, I rather classify myself as a person who isn't blind.

[New haven america]

Shell shock is just another word for PTSD, and it is not good. Surprise surprise, psych. isn't your strong suit either...

No, it is a specific condition that is triggered by the rigors of modern warfare. It is being paralyzed by fear from being in the thick of gunfire, artillery, and so on. My closest experience is going to a gun range for the first time, was completely unprepared for how loud pistol, shotgun, and rifle fire is in person. Made me have full body convulsions and trembling, but in time the fear left me. You get used to it with enough prolonged exposure.

Shooters can wear ear protection, but the military generally doesn't have that luxury. It is a fact of life that firearms will in time- ruin your hearing.

Refer to my previous psych. comment.

[Ethel mermania]

most people, including hero's, have said they were scared.

It might seem even a bit worrying to be in a situation like that with someone who was blasé about it.

yeah, but its weird, humans get use to anything, for better or worse

[Yagon]

It might seem even a bit worrying to be in a situation like that with someone who was blasé about it.

yeah, but its weird, humans get use to anything, for better or worse

I mean someone who was unaffected by it from the beginning.

As for getting used to it, I would worry there would be some serious consequences to getting used to constantly being in a state of war, likely on the "worse" end of the scale.

Well, I suppose its bed time. I am thankful there is not war where I am, and I tender my useless hopes for those who are not as lucky.

[Ethel mermania]

yeah, but its weird, humans get use to anything, for better or worse

I mean someone who was unaffected by it from the beginning.

As for getting used to it, I would worry there would be some serious consequences to getting used to constantly being in a state of war, likely on the "worse" end of the scale.

Well, I suppose its bed time. I am thankful there is not war where I am, and I tender my useless hopes for those who are not as lucky.

sleep well