Economics Discussion Thread

[Barbarossistan]

Why is there no postkeynesian/modern monetary theory option in the poll? I really want to check that. Can it be added?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Poor people in capitalist societies are obese--that's the exact opposite of starvation.

And what about the millions that die of hunger each year?

They are in the Third World, not known for its laissez-faire economic policies and bourgeois liberalism

[Taihei Tengoku]

Why is there no postkeynesian/modern monetary theory option in the poll? I really want to check that. Can it be added?

There is a post keynesian option. MMT is rather fringe, even on the internet, so it would fall into the miscellaneous category.

[Anime North America]

And what about the millions that die of hunger each year?

They are in the Third World, not known for its laissez-faire economic policies and bourgeois liberalism

Oh puh-lease. Don't tell me you think the Central-African Republic, a country where ~5,500 people died last year due to hunger, would magically fix itself by becoming AnCapistan. The bourgeois of that country barely have capital, and most of the economy is comprised of subsistence farming.

At best, foreign corporations would flood in and sweep up all the resources and profitable fields, as has already occurred throughout most of the African continent.

[Taihei Tengoku]

They are in the Third World, not known for its laissez-faire economic policies and bourgeois liberalism

Oh puh-lease. Don't tell me you think the Central-African Republic, a country where ~5,500 people died last year due to hunger, would magically fix itself by becoming AnCapistan. The bourgeois of that country barely have capital, and most of the economy is comprised of subsistence farming.

At best, foreign corporations would flood in and sweep up all the resources and profitable fields, as has already occurred throughout most of the African continent.

Most of the British economy was subsistence farming at one point

[Barbarossistan]

Why is there no postkeynesian/modern monetary theory option in the poll? I really want to check that. Can it be added?

There is a post keynesian option. MMT is rather fringe, even on the internet, so it would fall into the miscellaneous category.

Tis is Nationstates! We should get our options even when too fringe for he internet

[Anime North America]

Oh puh-lease. Don't tell me you think the Central-African Republic, a country where ~5,500 people died last year due to hunger, would magically fix itself by becoming AnCapistan. The bourgeois of that country barely have capital, and most of the economy is comprised of subsistence farming.

At best, foreign corporations would flood in and sweep up all the resources and profitable fields, as has already occurred throughout most of the African continent.

Most of the British economy was subsistence farming at one point

Aye, as were many countries. What's your point?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Most of the British economy was subsistence farming at one point

Aye, as were many countries. What's your point?

Don't recall those countries developing through socialism

[Constantinopolis]

And what about the millions that die of hunger each year?

They are in the Third World, not known for its laissez-faire economic policies and bourgeois liberalism

"Capitalism only fails because it's not REAL CAPITALISM, you guys!!!"

True Capitalism™ never led to starvation, because if people are starving, then it's not True Capitalism™. Duh.

[Anime North America]

Aye, as were many countries. What's your point?

Don't recall those countries developing through socialism

F'real though?



Okay man, since you're obviously not too acquainted with leftist philosophy, lemme lay some knowledge on ya: Socialists generally regard society as having gone through several economic systems in the past - chiefly a Slave Society (Ancient Rome, for example), Feudalism (Medieval Europe), and now Capitalism (most of the world today.) Further, they acknowledge the achievements of Capitalism, but consider it obsolete, and argue that Socialism (and eventually Communism) are the next phases of human society.

Capitalism was great because it eventually led to the Industrial Revolution and has generally increased most peoples' quality of life (albeit only with the aim of maximizing profit), but even in its salad days, the reality of unmitigated, laissez-faire economics constantly reared its ugly head. If you read a highschool history book, I'm sure you're well-aware of how workers fought tooth and nail for safety regulations and the eight-hour workday; things that greatly improve QoL for the average individual, but are unprofitable to the capitalist class. What's more, capitalism actually limits the development and deployment of new technologies due to them not being profitable; see for example, planned obsolescence, or recall how Tesla "magically" extended the battery life of its cars to allow their customers to get away from a recent(?) hurricane.

Furthermore I'd advise you look into the labor history of the United States, food deserts, the Great Moderation, the presidency of Herbert Hoover (particularly his economic policies), and the context for Franklin Delano Roosevelt's "New Deal". All searchable on Wikipedia of course.

[Taihei Tengoku]

They are in the Third World, not known for its laissez-faire economic policies and bourgeois liberalism

"Capitalism only fails because it's not REAL CAPITALISM, you guys!!!"

True Capitalism™ never led to starvation, because if people are starving, then it's not True Capitalism™. Duh.

The original Marxist, Marx himself, would agree that states in a agrarian mode of production are not capitalist, therefore the failures of the agrarian mode (general underproductivity) would not be a failure of the capitalist mode of production.

From an institutional standpoint a market economy generally does not try to hinder the market at every turn. When bad things come from hindering the market it's rather illogical to blame the market forces you've prevented from operating. It is a bit like slashing the tires of a car and then blaming Goodyear it.

[Taihei Tengoku]

food deserts don't exist by the way

the wages of high time preference are junk calories

[Anime North America]

food deserts don't exist by the way

the wages of high time preference are junk calories

Way to dodge everything I just said. If you're not going to address my post, you're not worth conducting discourse with.

[Taihei Tengoku]

food deserts don't exist by the way

the wages of high time preference are junk calories

Way to dodge everything I just said. If you're not going to address my post, you're not worth conducting discourse with.

I don't try to quote large pictures of smug anime girls.

anyways tl;dr I'm familiar enough with leftist theory, it's wrong because it cannot explain what actually happened.

[36 Camera Perspective]

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read anything ANA said that shouldn't be common knowledge.

[Anime North America]

Way to dodge everything I just said. If you're not going to address my post, you're not worth conducting discourse with.

I don't try to quote large pictures of smug anime girls.

anyways tl;dr I'm familiar enough with leftist theory, it's wrong because it cannot explain what actually happened.

Well, if that's what you wanna believe. I'd throw in a jab about how modern capitalist philosophers are even more pie-in-the sky idealistic, but I'd reckon there's no point.

[Taihei Tengoku]

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read anything ANA said that shouldn't be common knowledge.

1) Workplace safety went up and death rates down before safety regulations, because more productive workers meant greater losses in turnover.
2) Work hours declined before workday regulations. The trend today is towards voluntarily taking on more hours--high earners work the most.
3) Planned obsolescence doesn't exist--if it creates a certain amount of revenue for a good that lasts so many years, why not create half the number of goods that last twice as long and sell them for twice the price?

A lot of "common knowledge" regarding history are folktales told to make people feel better.

[36 Camera Perspective]

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read anything ANA said that shouldn't be common knowledge.

1) Workplace safety went up and death rates down before safety regulations, because more productive workers meant greater losses in turnover.
2) Work hours declined before workday regulations. The trend today is towards voluntarily taking on more hours--high earners work the most.
3) Planned obsolescence doesn't exist--if it creates a certain amount of revenue for a good that lasts so many years, why not create half the number of goods that last twice as long and sell them for twice the price?

A lot of "common knowledge" regarding history are folktales told to make people feel better.

Valid points.

[Barbarossistan]

Leftist theory not only fails to explain what happened but completely fails to explain how socialism or communism will work.

Economic calculation problem? never answered

The evolutionary approach to new product development in capitalism? No replacement

Incentive structure problems? No answer

The claim is that it will be amazing somehow, the problems of real world attempts are ignored.

The Soviets for example were themselves well aware of the serious problems in their planned economy, especially agricultural underperformance, and it was the reform effort by Gorbachev, an agricultural economist, that resulted in the collapse of the Soviet system. Although it should be noted that it was Gorbachevs unwillingness to harshly suppress political unrest more then economic reform that caused the collapse. The Chinese transitioned away from a centraly planned economy as well and suppressed all dissent harshly and remained stable as result.

[Janszoonia]

To be perfectly honest, I didn't read anything ANA said that shouldn't be common knowledge.

1) Workplace safety went up and death rates down before safety regulations, because more productive workers meant greater losses in turnover.
2) Work hours declined before workday regulations. The trend today is towards voluntarily taking on more hours--high earners work the most.
3) Planned obsolescence doesn't exist--if it creates a certain amount of revenue for a good that lasts so many years, why not create half the number of goods that last twice as long and sell them for twice the price?

A lot of "common knowledge" regarding history are folktales told to make people feel better.

Good to hear.

[Constantinopolis]

"Capitalism only fails because it's not REAL CAPITALISM, you guys!!!"

True Capitalism™ never led to starvation, because if people are starving, then it's not True Capitalism™. Duh.

The original Marxist, Marx himself, would agree that states in a agrarian mode of production are not capitalist, therefore the failures of the agrarian mode (general underproductivity) would not be a failure of the capitalist mode of production.

There's no such thing as an "agrarian mode of production". There is a feudal mode of production, which was still quite widespread in many parts of the world during Marx's lifetime, but is almost entirely extinct today.

Capitalism isn't responsible for what was happening in Africa in the mid-1800s, because Africa was not yet capitalist at that point. But today? Almost the entire world, except for a few holdouts, is capitalist. This is the golden age of capitalism. Today. We're living in it now. There never was - and likely there never will be - a historical period when the world is more capitalist than in the early 21st century.

This world, the world we're living in now? It's your world. It was made in your image. You rule it. You own it.

[Northern Davincia]

Furthermore I'd advise you look into the labor history of the United States, food deserts, the Great Moderation, the presidency of Herbert Hoover (particularly his economic policies), and the context for Franklin Delano Roosevelt's "New Deal". All searchable on Wikipedia of course.

Ah, yes, the protectionist Herbert Hoover, whose policies were directly adopted by the authoritarian FDR.

I don't try to quote large pictures of smug anime girls.

anyways tl;dr I'm familiar enough with leftist theory, it's wrong because it cannot explain what actually happened.

Well, if that's what you wanna believe. I'd throw in a jab about how modern capitalist philosophers are even more pie-in-the sky idealistic, but I'd reckon there's no point.

Jeez, almost like a socialist.

[Constantinopolis]

It's funny how, despite their historic victory and taking over practically the entire world, the capitalists deny the fact that they've won because they don't want to be held responsible for what happens in the world that they rule.

[Barbarossistan]

It's funny how, despite their historic victory and taking over practically the entire world, the capitalists deny the fact that they've won because they don't want to be held responsible for what happens in the world that they rule.

we'll happily take responsibilty for the effects of capitalism in the real world, just dont dump failure of government or the flaws in the general human condition at capitalisms door

Will you also take responsibility for the real effects of leftist economic policy? And no, you dont get to claim charity and welfare practices paid for by capitalist production.

[Taihei Tengoku]

The original Marxist, Marx himself, would agree that states in a agrarian mode of production are not capitalist, therefore the failures of the agrarian mode (general underproductivity) would not be a failure of the capitalist mode of production.

There's no such thing as an "agrarian mode of production". There is a feudal mode of production, which was still quite widespread in many parts of the world during Marx's lifetime, but is almost entirely extinct today.

Capitalism isn't responsible for what was happening in Africa in the mid-1800s, because Africa was not yet capitalist at that point. But today? Almost the entire world, except for a few holdouts, is capitalist. This is the golden age of capitalism. Today. We're living in it now. There never was - and likely there never will be - a historical period when the world is more capitalist than in the early 21st century.

This world, the world we're living in now? It's your world. It was made in your image. You rule it. You own it.

Alright in that case I get to """"own"""" the historic reductions in poverty that happened recently, and hope for the best for the (thankfully) shrinking holdouts of utter deprivation.