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Economics Discussion Thread

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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To which school of economics do you personally prescribe?

Monetarist/Chicago-School
7
3%
Keynesian/Neo-Keynesian/New Keynesian/Post-Keynesian
51
24%
Neoclassical
6
3%
Austrian-School
31
14%
Mercantilist
6
3%
Classical
5
2%
Corporatist
11
5%
American/National
15
7%
Marxian/Socialist
60
28%
Other
23
11%
 
Total votes : 215

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:27 pm

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:And where did you get your food?


We asked for money at a bus stop. We got enough in an hour for food and drugs. On weekends we would often get enough for fast food meals.

Wow, you live in a generous place.

Utah's state legislature found that it was spending about 30 grand a year per person dealing with the homeless, between costs of temporary shelter during nights when people WILL freeze to death, to subsidizing soup kitchens and things of that nature, to costs of prosecution for trespassing, to emergency care for frostbite and other severe issues resulting from exposure to the elements, etc.

Then again, Utah is a northern state. You're not likely to die from exposure in San Diego.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:30 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:
Galloism wrote:Because wage-fixing is a thing.

We also need to do something about that in the broader scale.

If you think that ALL companies in the, say, steel industry will fix wages at $3 an hour, then that's wrong. There will always be companies trying to snatch the best of employees by raising their wages, therefore getting higher quality goods, forcing their competition to follow suit


Sure they will wage fix. Industries already wage fix things now, even though it's against the law.

Don't tell me companies won't do what companies are already doing even though it's illegal.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:34 pm

Collatis wrote:
Taihei Tengoku wrote:If you only look at unionization.

By measures of actual socialism (state share of GDP, ease of doing business, actual state policy) Nordics are capitalists.

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.


I thought socialism was based upon proletariat ownership of the means of production.
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Donut section
 
Founded:

Postby Donut section » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:34 pm

Galloism wrote:
Donut section wrote:
We asked for money at a bus stop. We got enough in an hour for food and drugs. On weekends we would often get enough for fast food meals.

Wow, you live in a generous place.

Utah's state legislature found that it was spending about 30 grand a year per person dealing with the homeless, between costs of temporary shelter during nights when people WILL freeze to death, to subsidizing soup kitchens and things of that nature, to costs of prosecution for trespassing, to emergency care for frostbite and other severe issues resulting from exposure to the elements, etc.

Then again, Utah is a northern state. You're not likely to die from exposure in San Diego.


Funnily enough at night we stayed in a inner city commercial district because we got caught squatting there by a security guard. We made a deal to keep theives and graffiti away at night so he could do weed deliveries in his work vehicle. And we got somewhere warm to live.

He kept getting praise for how effective his patrols were. Funniest shit out.

I should add Pizza Hut knew to deliver to the back of the building.
Last edited by Donut section on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Aillyria
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Postby Aillyria » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:36 pm

Donut section wrote:
Aillyria wrote:How? Explain. Even if social ownership was synonymous with government ownership (hint: it isn't), how would that prevent the implementation of a functional market? Socialism doesn't hinge on central planning at all.



Because people will start openly trading with each other.

Socialist ownership is synonymous with government ownership in a democracy. It's why government run industry is the red headed step child. It's ugly inefficient and taking up a more deserving persons space.

In a socialist market economy, cooperatives (companies operating with workplace democracy and profit sharing) would own most the MoP for the majority of the time, not the government.....just like current market capitalism. The government would tend only to land and MoP that isn't owned by a cooperative til one takes it up.

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:Because strong unions will be put in place that ultimately make it irrelevant?


Because some people's labor isn't worth that much.

I hate minimum wage because it is a form of price control, which wreaks havoc on markets. Labor should be allowed to settle to its proper and natural market price.
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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:36 pm

Telconi wrote:
Collatis wrote:Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.


I thought socialism was based upon proletariat ownership of the means of production.


That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.
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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:37 pm

Galloism wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:If you think that ALL companies in the, say, steel industry will fix wages at $3 an hour, then that's wrong. There will always be companies trying to snatch the best of employees by raising their wages, therefore getting higher quality goods, forcing their competition to follow suit


Sure they will wage fix. Industries already wage fix things now, even though it's against the law.

Don't tell me companies won't do what companies are already doing even though it's illegal.

Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?
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Skappola
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Postby Skappola » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:41 pm

In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.
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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:44 pm

Skappola wrote:In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.


Well... what is the economic theory that most economists adhere to?
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:45 pm

Valgora wrote:
Telconi wrote:
I thought socialism was based upon proletariat ownership of the means of production.


That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.


Would involve, but isn't defined by.
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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:48 pm

Telconi wrote:
Valgora wrote:
That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.


Would involve, but isn't defined by.


You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.
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Galloism
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Posts: 58401
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:48 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:
Galloism wrote:
Sure they will wage fix. Industries already wage fix things now, even though it's against the law.

Don't tell me companies won't do what companies are already doing even though it's illegal.

Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?

Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:49 pm

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:Wow, you live in a generous place.

Utah's state legislature found that it was spending about 30 grand a year per person dealing with the homeless, between costs of temporary shelter during nights when people WILL freeze to death, to subsidizing soup kitchens and things of that nature, to costs of prosecution for trespassing, to emergency care for frostbite and other severe issues resulting from exposure to the elements, etc.

Then again, Utah is a northern state. You're not likely to die from exposure in San Diego.


Funnily enough at night we stayed in a inner city commercial district because we got caught squatting there by a security guard. We made a deal to keep theives and graffiti away at night so he could do weed deliveries in his work vehicle. And we got somewhere warm to live.

He kept getting praise for how effective his patrols were. Funniest shit out.

I should add Pizza Hut knew to deliver to the back of the building.

Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Telconi
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Founded: Oct 08, 2016
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Telconi » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:50 pm

Valgora wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Would involve, but isn't defined by.


You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.


Well, you can, as in... Nordic Countries! They have a say in the operation of the business, but don't have any ownership.
-2.25 LEFT
-3.23 LIBERTARIAN

PRO:
-Weapons Rights
-Gender Equality
-LGBTQ Rights
-Racial Equality
-Religious Freedom
-Freedom of Speech
-Freedom of Association
-Life
-Limited Government
-Non Interventionism
-Labor Unions
-Environmental Protections
ANTI:
-Racism
-Sexism
-Bigotry In All Forms
-Government Overreach
-Government Surveillance
-Freedom For Security Social Transactions
-Unnecessary Taxes
-Excessively Specific Government Programs
-Foreign Entanglements
-Religious Extremism
-Fascists Masquerading as "Social Justice Warriors"

"The Constitution is NOT an instrument for the government to restrain the people,it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government-- lest it come to dominate our lives and interests." ~ Patrick Henry

Donut section
 
Founded:

Postby Donut section » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:51 pm

Galloism wrote:
Donut section wrote:
Funnily enough at night we stayed in a inner city commercial district because we got caught squatting there by a security guard. We made a deal to keep theives and graffiti away at night so he could do weed deliveries in his work vehicle. And we got somewhere warm to live.

He kept getting praise for how effective his patrols were. Funniest shit out.

I should add Pizza Hut knew to deliver to the back of the building.

Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.


I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

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Skappola
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Postby Skappola » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:52 pm

Valgora wrote:
Skappola wrote:In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.


Well... what is the economic theory that most economists adhere to?

Generally the consensus exists somewhere between New Keynesianism and the old Neoclassical Synthesis, which together is referred to as the new neoclassical synthesis. A lot of the ideas also came from the Chicago School, but most economists that identified with the Chicago School have now tended to identify with neoclassical economics.

Meanwhile the people here seem to be on the Austrian and Marxist train? And who're the people supporting mercantilism? This isn't the 16th century, guys.
Last edited by Skappola on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Improved werpland
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Postby Improved werpland » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:53 pm

Isn't New Keynesian economics quite different from Keynesian economics?

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:53 pm

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.


I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.
Last edited by Galloism on Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Valgora
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Posts: 6635
Founded: Mar 23, 2016
Ex-Nation

Postby Valgora » Wed Nov 29, 2017 8:54 pm

Telconi wrote:
Valgora wrote:
You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.


Well, you can, as in... Nordic Countries! They have a say in the operation of the business, but don't have any ownership.


I meant more that workers' ownership requires workplace democracy.
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Pro - Socialism/communism, Palestine, space exploration, left libertarianism, BLM, Gun Rights, LGBTQ, Industrial Hemp
Anti - Trump, Hillary, capitalism, authoritarianism, Gun Control, Police, UN, electric cars, Automation of the workforce
Sometimes, I like to think of myself as the Commie version of Dale Gribble.

Donut section
 
Founded:

Postby Donut section » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:02 pm

Galloism wrote:
Donut section wrote:
I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.


That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

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The Portland Territory
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Postby The Portland Territory » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:03 pm

Galloism wrote:
The Portland Territory wrote:Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?

Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?

Programming. There's many many kinds of programming from gaming, to app software, to security. And not all nor even a majority of major programming firms would do this
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16 year old Monarchist from Rhode Island. Interested in economics, governance, metaphysical philosophy, European + Near Eastern history, vexillology, faith, hunting, automotive, ranching, science fiction, music, and anime.

Pro: Absolute Monarchy, Lex Rex, Subsidiarity, Guild Capitalism, Property Rights, Tridentine Catholicism, Unlimited Gun Rights, Hierarchy, Traditionalism, Ethnic Nationalism, Irredentism
Mixed: Fascism, Anarcho Capitalism, Donald Trump
Against: Democracy/ Democratic Republicanism, Egalitarianism, Direct Taxation, Cultural Marxism, Redistribution of Wealth

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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:04 pm

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.


That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:04 pm

The Portland Territory wrote:
Galloism wrote:Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?

Programming. There's many many kinds of programming from gaming, to app software, to security. And not all nor even a majority of major programming firms would do this

Why not?

It's the most rational thing for an economic actor to do.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


Donut section
 
Founded:

Postby Donut section » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:09 pm

Galloism wrote:
Donut section wrote:
That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.


Or we can just explain to people how the more valuable you are to others the more you can demand to be paid. And give simple training on how to haggle for your pay.

Unions I'm don't like. Minimum wage is bad.

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Galloism
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Founded: Aug 20, 2005
Father Knows Best State

Postby Galloism » Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:11 pm

Donut section wrote:
Galloism wrote:Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.


Or we can just explain to people how the more valuable you are to others the more you can demand to be paid. And give simple training on how to haggle for your pay.


Wage fixing. They can wait you out while you get starving, cold, and desperate. You can't wait them out because they're not starving, cold, and desperate.

Unions I'm don't like. Minimum wage is bad.


Why do you not like the free market?
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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