Economics Discussion Thread

[Aillyria]

How? Explain. Even if social ownership was synonymous with government ownership (hint: it isn't), how would that prevent the implementation of a functional market? Socialism doesn't hinge on central planning at all.

Because people will start openly trading with each other.

Socialist ownership is synonymous with government ownership in a democracy. It's why government run industry is the red headed step child. It's ugly inefficient and taking up a more deserving persons space.

In a socialist market economy, cooperatives (companies operating with workplace democracy and profit sharing) would own most the MoP for the majority of the time, not the government.....just like current market capitalism. The government would tend only to land and MoP that isn't owned by a cooperative til one takes it up.

Because strong unions will be put in place that ultimately make it irrelevant?

Because some people's labor isn't worth that much.

I hate minimum wage because it is a form of price control, which wreaks havoc on markets. Labor should be allowed to settle to its proper and natural market price.

[Valgora]

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

I thought socialism was based upon proletariat ownership of the means of production.

That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.

[The Portland Territory]

If you think that ALL companies in the, say, steel industry will fix wages at $3 an hour, then that's wrong. There will always be companies trying to snatch the best of employees by raising their wages, therefore getting higher quality goods, forcing their competition to follow suit

Sure they will wage fix. Industries already wage fix things now, even though it's against the law.

Don't tell me companies won't do what companies are already doing even though it's illegal.

Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?

[Skappola]

In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.

[Valgora]

In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.

Well... what is the economic theory that most economists adhere to?

[Telconi]

I thought socialism was based upon proletariat ownership of the means of production.

That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.

Would involve, but isn't defined by.

[Valgora]

That would involve workplace democracy and/or economic democracy.

Would involve, but isn't defined by.

You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.

[Galloism]

Sure they will wage fix. Industries already wage fix things now, even though it's against the law.

Don't tell me companies won't do what companies are already doing even though it's illegal.

Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?

Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?

[Galloism]

Wow, you live in a generous place.

Utah's state legislature found that it was spending about 30 grand a year per person dealing with the homeless, between costs of temporary shelter during nights when people WILL freeze to death, to subsidizing soup kitchens and things of that nature, to costs of prosecution for trespassing, to emergency care for frostbite and other severe issues resulting from exposure to the elements, etc.

Then again, Utah is a northern state. You're not likely to die from exposure in San Diego.

Funnily enough at night we stayed in a inner city commercial district because we got caught squatting there by a security guard. We made a deal to keep theives and graffiti away at night so he could do weed deliveries in his work vehicle. And we got somewhere warm to live.

He kept getting praise for how effective his patrols were. Funniest shit out.

I should add Pizza Hut knew to deliver to the back of the building.

Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.

[Telconi]

Would involve, but isn't defined by.

You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.

Well, you can, as in... Nordic Countries! They have a say in the operation of the business, but don't have any ownership.

[Donut section]

Funnily enough at night we stayed in a inner city commercial district because we got caught squatting there by a security guard. We made a deal to keep theives and graffiti away at night so he could do weed deliveries in his work vehicle. And we got somewhere warm to live.

He kept getting praise for how effective his patrols were. Funniest shit out.

I should add Pizza Hut knew to deliver to the back of the building.

Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.

I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

[Skappola]

In regards to the poll, less than a third of people here actually agree to an economic theory that most economists adhere to. How sad.

Well... what is the economic theory that most economists adhere to?

Generally the consensus exists somewhere between New Keynesianism and the old Neoclassical Synthesis, which together is referred to as the new neoclassical synthesis. A lot of the ideas also came from the Chicago School, but most economists that identified with the Chicago School have now tended to identify with neoclassical economics.

Meanwhile the people here seem to be on the Austrian and Marxist train? And who're the people supporting mercantilism? This isn't the 16th century, guys.

[Improved werpland]

Isn't New Keynesian economics quite different from Keynesian economics?

[Galloism]

Yay, so the grand fix was assisting someone to engage in illegal activity.

Well that's a great thing for the homeless to do.

I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.

[Valgora]

You really can't have one without the other.

However, socialism ain't just one think. State Socialism/State Capitalism is where the state (or the government) owns the means of production. And that type of Socialism can be split into many more depending on other factors.

Well, you can, as in... Nordic Countries! They have a say in the operation of the business, but don't have any ownership.

I meant more that workers' ownership requires workplace democracy.

[Donut section]

I wasn't implying a grand fix. Just what I did.

There aren't any grand fixes anyways. Every attempt makes things worse.

Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.

That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

[The Portland Territory]

Interestante. Now, the issue here is that the employees still are agreeing to what theyre being paid. Well, not the ones filing lawsuits, but who says they can't strike? Or just find a new job?

Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?

Programming. There's many many kinds of programming from gaming, to app software, to security. And not all nor even a majority of major programming firms would do this

[Galloism]

Eh, not EVERY attempt. Any fix is going to be, by definition, partial, but Utah's program of housing the homeless is working pretty well (much better than feared, but not as much as hoped).

And is coming in a lot cheaper than just letting them manage and cleaning up the results.

That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.

[Galloism]

Let me ask you a question.

Your skill is programming. All the major programming firms conspire to drive wages down (as these did).

Get a new job where exactly?

Programming. There's many many kinds of programming from gaming, to app software, to security. And not all nor even a majority of major programming firms would do this

Why not?

It's the most rational thing for an economic actor to do.

[Donut section]

That's the difference between grand fixes and fixes. Fuck how many homeless would accept being paid two bucks an hour to be "sleep in security?" Have a tent (or literally whatever) set up at one corner of the property and a button you need to press every other hour at the others.

Socialism is a grand fix. It doesn't work and makes things worse.

Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.

Or we can just explain to people how the more valuable you are to others the more you can demand to be paid. And give simple training on how to haggle for your pay.

Unions I'm don't like. Minimum wage is bad.

[Galloism]

Well, here's the thing - we either need minimum wages (not ideal because economics reasons) or strong unions. Otherwise we will be subsidizing the wage fixers and exploiters by dealing with the cleanup.

I'm ok with strong unions. Strong unions are a strong equalizing force in capitalism - giving labor bargaining power at the table instead of being forced to take the best that they can get. It's a very free market solution and I'm ok with it.

Or we can just explain to people how the more valuable you are to others the more you can demand to be paid. And give simple training on how to haggle for your pay.

Wage fixing. They can wait you out while you get starving, cold, and desperate. You can't wait them out because they're not starving, cold, and desperate.

Unions I'm don't like. Minimum wage is bad.

Why do you not like the free market?

[The Portland Territory]

Programming. There's many many kinds of programming from gaming, to app software, to security. And not all nor even a majority of major programming firms would do this

Why not?

It's the most rational thing for an economic actor to do.

It really isn't, though

[Northern Davincia]

The Austrian School is the only legitimate one.

[Galloism]

Why not?

It's the most rational thing for an economic actor to do.

It really isn't, though

It really is. It is in your best interest to purchase the thing you need at the lowest possible price you can get it and still maintain the quality of it, whether that thing is an iron rod, a truck full of silica, or someone's labor.

With wage fixing, you get the thing you need at a rock bottom price, and all it takes is a little cooperation. That's why you see cases of it over and over again, even though it's illegal.

[Donut section]

Or we can just explain to people how the more valuable you are to others the more you can demand to be paid. And give simple training on how to haggle for your pay.

Wage fixing. They can wait you out while you get starving, cold, and desperate. You can't wait them out because they're not starving, cold, and desperate.

Unions I'm don't like. Minimum wage is bad.

Why do you not like the free market?

I've been homeless.
I've never been starving cold and desperate. I'm sure you are doing some sort of fallacy thing here. I just don't know what it's called.

Hey people can form a union if they want. I would rather they had those skills themselves.