Economics Discussion Thread

[Taihei Tengoku]

I am suggesting you don't know anything about economics and stake positions based on emotive attachments

[Kubumba Tribe]

Aillyria, what do you think of this?
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/ ... am-part-1/ There's 2 parts to this article

[Collatis]

I'm not arguing that Scandinavia is socialist. It's not. I'm arguing that it is closer to socialism than the vast majority of the world.

But it isn't, that's the point, unionization is in no way related to socialism. And the union culture is as was said "bolted on" to very laissez-faire style evonomies.

Unionization is extremely related to socialism. Unions aren't just powerful in Scandinavia. They plan an enshrined, institutional role in the economy. Scandinavia features far more economic democracy, the essential component of socialism, than much of the world.

[Aillyria]

I am suggesting you don't know anything about economics and stake positions based on emotive attachments

We all have emotive attachements to our positions, that's human nature. However, emotions aren't the reason I hold my beliefs.

You make it seem as if you're an expert in economic theory, when it is likely neither of us is a scholar. The thing is that the narrative that socialism is incompatible with the market (a system that predates Capitalism and is not synonymous with it).

[Kubumba Tribe]

But it isn't, that's the point, unionization is in no way related to socialism. And the union culture is as was said "bolted on" to very laissez-faire style evonomies.

Unionization is extremely related to socialism. Unions aren't just powerful in Scandinavia. They plan an enshrined, institutional role in the economy. Scandinavia features far more economic democracy, the essential component of socialism, than much of the world.

Maybe in Scandanavia they're powerful, but not so much in other places.

[Taihei Tengoku]

But it isn't, that's the point, unionization is in no way related to socialism. And the union culture is as was said "bolted on" to very laissez-faire style evonomies.

Unionization is extremely related to socialism. Unions aren't just powerful in Scandinavia. They plan an enshrined, institutional role in the economy. Scandinavia features far more economic democracy, the essential component of socialism, than much of the world.

Which is why they aren't exceptionally wealthier (which was the whole point of socialism in the first place!) than capitalist economies--Scandinavians in the United States are better off than Scandinavians in Scandinavia. Only Norwegians are better-off than Norwegian Americans--though this is entirely explained by Statoil, not "workplace democracy."

[Taihei Tengoku]

neither of us is a scholar

guess what my actual university degree is in

[Aillyria]

Aillyria, what do you think of this?
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/ ... am-part-1/ There's 2 parts to this article

Allah (swt) is great and wise, so much of the spirit this is in socialism. I don't understand how any God loving human can be capitalist, it's the paradigm of Iblis.

[Kubumba Tribe]

Aillyria, what do you think of this?
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/ ... am-part-1/ There's 2 parts to this article

Allah (swt) is great and wise, so much of the spirit this is in socialism. I don't understand how any God loving human can be capitalist, it's the paradigm of Iblis.

I wouldn't consider capitalism to be satanic, as some sources claims that Muslims contributed to what we know of as 'capitalism'. It's the way that some capitalist countries behave is what's wrong (possibly satanic in some cases).

[Aillyria]

neither of us is a scholar

guess what my actual university degree is in

Yes, so was mine.....unless either of us have doctorates, though, neither of us are "scholars".

[Collatis]

Unionization is extremely related to socialism. Unions aren't just powerful in Scandinavia. They plan an enshrined, institutional role in the economy. Scandinavia features far more economic democracy, the essential component of socialism, than much of the world.

Which is why they aren't exceptionally wealthier (which was the whole point of socialism in the first place!) than capitalist economies--Scandinavians in the United States are better off than Scandinavians in Scandinavia. Only Norwegians are better-off than Norwegian Americans--though this is entirely explained by Statoil, not "workplace democracy."

I'm not sure why you keep trying to turn this into a debate about a completely different topic. I'm not discussing whether the Nordic model, the American model, or socialism is the best system. I'm arguing that the Nordic model is closer to socialism than most systems present in the world.

[Valgora]

Aillyria, what do you think of this?
https://www.islamreligion.com/articles/ ... am-part-1/ There's 2 parts to this article

Allah (swt) is great and wise, so much of the spirit this is in socialism. I don't understand how any God loving human can be capitalist, it's the paradigm of Iblis.

There's a specific type of communism called Christian Communism.
It's not an oxymoron, unless it is to establish a theocracy which (as far as I know) it doesn't.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Which is why they aren't exceptionally wealthier (which was the whole point of socialism in the first place!) than capitalist economies--Scandinavians in the United States are better off than Scandinavians in Scandinavia. Only Norwegians are better-off than Norwegian Americans--though this is entirely explained by Statoil, not "workplace democracy."

I'm not sure why you keep trying to turn this into a debate about a completely different topic. I'm not discussing whether the Nordic model, the American model, or socialism is the best system. I'm arguing that the Nordic model is closer to socialism than most systems present in the world.

If you only look at unionization.

By measures of actual socialism (state share of GDP, ease of doing business, actual state policy) Nordics are capitalists.

[Collatis]

I'm not sure why you keep trying to turn this into a debate about a completely different topic. I'm not discussing whether the Nordic model, the American model, or socialism is the best system. I'm arguing that the Nordic model is closer to socialism than most systems present in the world.

If you only look at unionization.

By measures of actual socialism (state share of GDP, ease of doing business, actual state policy) Nordics are capitalists.

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

[Donut section]

That's an oxymoron.

Only if you don't know anything about economics, or intellectually dishonest, perhaps.

http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Market_Socialism

Knowledge can set you free.

Do you want me to link you the wiki for unicorns, because that's how you get linked the wiki for unicorns.

[Taihei Tengoku]

If you only look at unionization.

By measures of actual socialism (state share of GDP, ease of doing business, actual state policy) Nordics are capitalists.

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

It's obviously the negation of the "ease of doing business"--the kinds of states rounding out the bottom are Venezuela, Cuba, and Zimbabwe.

[Aillyria]

If you only look at unionization.

By measures of actual socialism (state share of GDP, ease of doing business, actual state policy) Nordics are capitalists.

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

I hate this notion that there's some sort of spectrum or sliding scale of socialism. It doesn't work like that, a systrm is either socialist or not, there's no middle ground.

Only if you don't know anything about economics, or intellectually dishonest, perhaps.

http://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Market_Socialism

Knowledge can set you free.

Do you want me to link you the wiki for unicorns, because that's how you get linked the wiki for unicorns.

Don't dodge the topic, prove market economics and socialism are incompatible.

[The Portland Territory]

I fundamentally disagree with you in the sense that I believe everybody has the right to choose the best insurance or whatever plans for themselves.

Anyways, this poses a major problem. The more people the government has to take care of, the costlier the plan becomes. This will cause one of two things: One, the government goes into major debt or 2, taxes are increased so high that it’s not even worth it

Are you sure?
Because countries with universal healthcare spend less money for a greater benefit.
The US spends more money but most goes to administrative costs due to the healthcare system in the US.

Do those nations have more than 300+ million people? Don't think so

[Collatis]

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

It's obviously the negation of the "ease of doing business"--the kinds of states rounding out the bottom are Venezuela, Cuba, and Zimbabwe.

Actually, the bottom country is Somalia. Somalia: socialist paradise? Socialism is worker control of the means of production, which manifests itself in the form of workplace democracy. Ease of doing business is not directly related to that.

[Taihei Tengoku]

"Sweden isn't socialist"--Swedish economist

[Donut section]

Actual socialism has to do with economic democracy, not "ease of doing business". You seem to be defining socialism as things you don't like. I have clearly demonstrated that the Nordic countries are closer to socialism than most countries. That does not, however, mean that they aren't capitalist, as I have previously stated.

I hate this notion that there's some sort of spectrum or sliding scale of socialism. It doesn't work like that, a systrm is either socialist or not, there's no middle ground.

Do you want me to link you the wiki for unicorns, because that's how you get linked the wiki for unicorns.

Don't dodge the topic, prove market economics and socialism are incompatible.

Socialism is ownership of the means of production by the workers. This requires government control which is the opposite of market economics.

[Collatis]

I hate this notion that there's some sort of spectrum or sliding scale of socialism. It doesn't work like that, a systrm is either socialist or not, there's no middle ground.

A system is either socialist or it is not, yes, but non-socialist systems can be closer to or further away from socialism compared to other non-socialist systems.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Actually, the bottom country is Somalia. Somalia: socialist paradise?

The Mogadishu government controls most of the country.

Socialism is worker control of the means of production,

Zimbabwe has redistributed the means of production to its workers.

[Collatis]

"Sweden isn't socialist"--Swedish economist

*sigh*

I'm not arguing that Scandinavia is socialist. It's not. I'm arguing that it is closer to socialism than the vast majority of the world.

Do those nations have more than 300+ million people? Don't think so

I mean, there are only three countries in the world that fit that description.

[The Portland Territory]

Since this is on-topic in regards to the thread, a question that I asked in the LDT a while back:

Minimum Wage: What should it be, if one at all??