Could the Nazis have Won ?!?

[Senkaku]

step one: do not be nazis
step two: do not start a war
step three: live long and prosper

[Oil exporting People]

So what do you think NS ? Could the Nazis have won the war if they took these measures ?

Victory, as defined as achievement of most war aims in Continental Europe, was possible as late as October/November of 1942 during Case Blau; the possibility of a favorable stalemate remained into the Summer of 1944.

[The Huskar Social Union]

If they didn't invade Russia and Japan didn't attack Pearl Harbor, then they would have a better shot.

Japan would have forced the US to act at some point just because of their overall goals, it was just a matter of when.

As for Germany? They would have had to do so many things differently that it may as well have just been a different country and conflict altogether.

• Don't break the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact.
• Failing that, don't invade Russia with a plan so bad a group of toddlers could have done better
• Don't war crime your way through Eastern Europe and create a whole partisan situation that takes time and effort to deal with when there could have been a huge pool of volunteers to recruit from
• Listen to Rommel
• Listen to any of the General Staff at any point ever
• Actually don't listen to Herman Meyer
• Just don't bother with the SS
• If the SS is absolutely necessary, don't put Himmler in charge and don't let them delude themselves with ideas of Occultism and Knighthood
• Don't invent tanks in the most unnecessarily dumb way possible
• Don't get fooled into thinking an attack is coming through Scandinavia and keep it defended for so long
• Don't lose Africa and all the oil
• Don't fuck up the Battle of Britain in the dumbest way possible
• Don't let your plans to invade the US fall into US hands, like Jesus fucking christ this is basic shit come on
• Don't give Britain and it's allies four fucking years to plan and execute an invasion while doing basically nothing at all
• Don't have a leader so far up their own ass that their staff is afraid of waking them up when the country is being invaded by a massive invasion force
• Don't let idiot allies pick a fight with a country that has a higher GDP than you and all your allies combined
• If the idiots do pick a fight with said country, stay the hell out of it
• Maybe try to talk that ally into not committing a shitzillion war crimes too, while we're on the subject
• Don't go into Russia and then listen to Fred when he says "Let's split up, gang!"
• Don't get stuck in a city fight on a river when you aren't prepared for a long fight with an enemy you know won't give up
• If you have to retreat from said city fight and there is an obvious solution your man on the ground believes he can make work, don't go with the stupidly complicated plan an idiot who's failed multiple times pitches you
• I mean, just don't let Hitler lead the country, honestly
• Don't be Nazi Germany
• Don't start a war

Well there you have it

[Oil exporting People]

He attacked Russia on June 22 1941.

Original planning had sometime in May as the goal, but heavy flooding in rivers along the North European Plain delayed the onset of the invasion until June 10th, when the flood waters finally subsided. Diversion of 11th Army and other equipment to deal with the Balkans, particularly Yugoslavia, is what caused the June 22 start date; incidentally, the diversion of 11th Army left Army Group South seriously overstretched and unable to preform its mission tasks on its own. This is what later caused the Kiev diversion later in August.

Wasn't Sealion basically doomed from the get-go?

Essentially, yes. It was not needed to force Britain to the tables, however; German forces had been in position to cut the BEF's line of retreat to Dunkirk by taking up a position along the Aa Canal, but the Halt Order issued by von Runstedt (This is a pretty famous example of why "the Generals were always right" is wrong) prevented this from occurring. The entire loss of the BEF, along with hundreds of thousands of French and Belgians, would've resulted in a PM Halifax and a peace agreement. Otherwise, from then on, most opportunities to force Britain out of the war are dependent on different things; Rommel damn near destroyed the 8th Army in late 1941, and nearly did the same again going into the Summer of 1942 (Bir Hakeim and El Alamein were very close run). There was the "Med 1941" strategy proposed by elements of the Navy and Luftwaffe, but Hitler wisely demurred on them; otherwise the RKKA would've been storming into Germany around May of 1942.

[Vassenor]

No. Socialism always implodes.

Oh hey, that intentional distortion of history again.

[Oil exporting People]

Oh hey, that intentional distortion of history again.

Depends upon the group and what specifically you're referring to.

[Vassenor]

[align=][/align]

Oh hey, that intentional distortion of history again.

Depends upon the group and what specifically you're referring to.

Explain.

[Oil exporting People]

Depends upon the group and what specifically you're referring to.

Otto and Gregor Strasser for one, being the most obvious. Even after they were removed, Joseph Goebbels, who was of a like mind as far as the Socialistic aspects, remained until the very end.

[Vassenor]

Depends upon the group and what specifically you're referring to.

Otto and Gregor Strasser for one, being the most obvious. Even after they were removed, Joseph Goebbels, who was of a like mind as far as the Socialistic aspects, remained until the very end.

You mean the same Otto Strasser who was kicked out in 1930 for not fitting what Hitler wanted? The same Gregor Strasser who was bumped off during the Night of the Long Knives for these same reasons?

[Oil exporting People]

You mean the same Otto Strasser who was kicked out in 1930 for not fitting what Hitler wanted? The same Gregor Strasser who was bumped off during the Night of the Long Knives for these same reasons?

Yes, hence why I said "removed"; Goebbels, who was of the same general faction, remained. The situation and story was a lot more nuanced than that Snopes article tries to make it out to be.

[Herador]

You mean the same Otto Strasser who was kicked out in 1930 for not fitting what Hitler wanted? The same Gregor Strasser who was bumped off during the Night of the Long Knives for these same reasons?

Yes, hence why I said "removed"; Goebbels, who was of the same general faction, remained. The situation and story was a lot more nuanced than that Snopes article tries to make it out to be.

Or the professional liar who had access to the highest levels of Government knew what getting on Hitler's shitlist meant and did what he did for a living.

Or Hitler, the man who was killing socialists in the street or working them to death in the camps the whole time, saw the usefulness of one of the worlds best spin doctors and decided to give him a pass. He did it with useful Jews too, doesn't mean Nazi Germany was Jewish.

[Vassenor]

You mean the same Otto Strasser who was kicked out in 1930 for not fitting what Hitler wanted? The same Gregor Strasser who was bumped off during the Night of the Long Knives for these same reasons?

Yes, hence why I said "removed"; Goebbels, who was of the same general faction, remained. The situation and story was a lot more nuanced than that Snopes article tries to make it out to be.

In what way?

Also I'd hardly call someone who talked at length about "communist subhumans" even vaguely socialist.

[Herador]

Yes, hence why I said "removed"; Goebbels, who was of the same general faction, remained. The situation and story was a lot more nuanced than that Snopes article tries to make it out to be.

In what way?

Also I'd hardly call someone who talked at length about "communist subhumans" even vaguely socialist.

He was a professional liar, he lied a lot. He was also working for a dangerously unstable idiot whose sole virtues were luck and a knack for public speaking and if he had any beliefs that didn't toe the Nazi line he kept them under wraps.

I wouldn't be surprised if that same scenario played out all up and down the ranks of the Reich.

[Oil exporting People]

In what way? Also I'd hardly call someone who talked at length about "communist subhumans" even vaguely socialist.

To borrow a Left wing talking point, Communist =/= Socialism. Most of the National Socialist critique of Communism was based on it's international character and heavy presence of Jews within the system; even then, Hitler and Mussolini both expressed admiration for Stalin's construction of "Slavic Fascism". As for Goebbels, he was very much in favor of a domestic Socialist program, on both a welfare level and stance on Capitalists level.

[Constitutional Technocracy of Minecraft]

Well, the Nazis would have done far better in WW2 if they didn't carry out Operation Barbarossa. IMO that basically lost them the war.

[Herador]

Well, the Nazis would have done far better in WW2 if they didn't carry out Operation Barbarossa. IMO that basically lost them the war.

Others have pointed out in this thread that Stalin would have broken the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact if Hitler hadn't, and Hitler chose the perfect time to do it. Or rather, the best time to do it, there would never be a perfect time. Even if they'd started the campaign earlier and were able to reach Moscow there would still be Stalingrad and Leningrad. If they split up, which they did and failed at miserably, they'd have smaller numbers against a nation with more soldiers than Hitler had bullets and the German supply lines would be fucked all to hell.

Factor in the T-34 and KV1/2 and you have a pretty good hard counter to most of what the Germans have going for them on the ground at the time. If the Russians invade the Germans get home field advantage but they're still dealing with the numbers, the technically superior T-34, and America either having been dragged in by Japan at this point or jumping in to help whoever is left in Western Europe to keep the Russians from owning all the Atlantic beachfront property.

Hitler was fucked from GO, and it was because they were all incompetent as fuck.

[Baltenstein]

Maybe. Assuming the world stage was the exact same, if Germany went to war with either the Allies or the Soviets, and didn't bother with the Americans, a victory could have happened.
Especially if they decided to land in Edinburgh; the Royal Navy never protects that coast.
If they did much less genocide as well, they would've done better.
Now, of course, once the Germans dealt with one enemy, the United States would likely have decided to intervene, helping either the Allies or the Soviets, depending on who's left. That's a war I don't see them winning, although it certainly would last a while.

How would they have gotten an invasion force all the way up the Scottish coast, past the British home fleet and the RAF? And in what kind of transport? Certainly not the barely seaworthy river barges they had in mind for Operation Sea Lion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... ding_craft

Short answer: The only way the Nazis could have won the war would have been by keeping the war smaller than it was. Fighting fewer enemies, conquering less land. That would have been possible.

But defeating France, the British Empire, the Soviet Union and the United States all in the same war - that was never going to happen. The basic reason the Nazis lost was because they made too many enemies.

Though there's also the Japanese mistake of attacking Pearl Harbor. The Nazis got into a war with the US because Japan attacked Pearl Harbor, and since Germany was an ally of Japan, they declared war on the US when the US declared war on Japan. The US was officially neutral before, because of what happened in WWI. Also, Japan only caused temporary setback on Pearl Harbor.

Germany and the US were already de facto at war in the Atlantic before Pearl Harbor. The official German war declaration was merely a formality in that regard.

[Kamchastkia]

no.

[Topoliani]

If they didn't fight the Greco-Italian war they might have. If it wasn't for that war, the Germans would have enough time to reach Moscow before winter, therefore, Winning on the Soviet front. The Western Front would probably also fall due to the fact that all of their military resources can go to wiping out Britannia and possibly America. Fortunately, this didn't happen, because if it did happen I might not have existed.

Edit: Now, of course, I do realize there were more factors that went into the fall of the Nazis. However, reaching Moscow before the soldiers freeze to death would be a major plus.

[Sovaal]

unlikely, especially when they declared war on not one country with a higher population and industrial base then them, but two, along with basically tying their own feet in the race by expelling or killing many Jewish scientists along with refusing to change their industry to a war footing for like three years, by which time it was already to late.

[Herador]

unlikely, especially when they declared war on not one country with a higher population and industrial base then them, but two, along with basically tying their own feet in the race by expelling or killing many Jewish scientists along with refusing to change their industry to a war footing for like three years, by which time it was already to late.

Fuuuuuuck, I knew I forgot something from my list.

[Oil exporting People]

Others have pointed out in this thread that Stalin would have broken the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact if Hitler hadn't, and Hitler chose the perfect time to do it. Or rather, the best time to do it, there would never be a perfect time. Even if they'd started the campaign earlier and were able to reach Moscow there would still be Stalingrad and Leningrad. If they split up, which they did and failed at miserably, they'd have smaller numbers against a nation with more soldiers than Hitler had bullets and the German supply lines would be fucked all to hell.

Factor in the T-34 and KV1/2 and you have a pretty good hard counter to most of what the Germans have going for them on the ground at the time. If the Russians invade the Germans get home field advantage but they're still dealing with the numbers, the technically superior T-34, and America either having been dragged in by Japan at this point or jumping in to help whoever is left in Western Europe to keep the Russians from owning all the Atlantic beachfront property.

Hitler was fucked from GO, and it was because they were all incompetent as fuck.

There's been several comments along this line, but since yours is the most recent, it shall be the one I pick on to address this argument.

Others have pointed out in this thread that Stalin would have broken the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact if Hitler hadn't, and Hitler chose the perfect time to do it. Or rather, the best time to do it, there would never be a perfect time.

By October of 1940, Stalin was increasingly attempting to leverage his position to gain new concessions; withholding of resources he had agreed to provide to Germany was becoming the norm. In particular, he had set his sights on forcing German to consent to the defacto establishment of Bulgaria as a Soviet puppet, with new Red Army bases within it, a move which would seriously imperil Romania and its vital oil supplies by having Soviet forces to the North and the South of it. This strategic realization is a key factor in the decision for the invasion in 1941. Adding to this, and it's something the Germans couldn't have known, was that Soviet military reforms and buildup were continuing apace and were due for completion by 1942. Although there isn't much evidence for the Icebreaker hypothesis, sans some preliminary planning by Zhukov at the behest of Stalin, the generally agreed point in academia is that the Soviets were definitely of a mind to come West sometime; the date I most often see cited is something in late Spring of 1942, probably May.

By the Summer of 1941, it appeared Britain was going to be forced out; U-Boats were hitting the required tonnage goals in order to force them out and Rommel's offensives appear poised to reach the Suez Canal sometime soon. In Europe itself, France had been defeated, there was no danger of a British invasion to the West and the Balkans had been cleared immediately prior to the offensive. German intelligence was also correct in its deductions that the Soviets had yet to fully reform from the purges and recent border wars, and were unprepared to face a strategic attack. In short, it was the perfect moment to attack.

Even if they'd started the campaign earlier and were able to reach Moscow there would still be Stalingrad and Leningrad.

Well first, let's address your misconception that Moscow could only be taken by an early offensive:

By 15 October, 1st Panzer Division was approaching towards Torshok- i.e. moving away from Moscow! The forces dispatched to Kalinin were insufficient to achieve to achieve a decisive victory on their own, but the diversion seriously weakened the main push on Moscow and forced the Third Panzer Army to devote significant resources to a protracted attritional fight around Kalinin. If XLI Panzer Corps had pushed east towards Volokolamsk, the Germans might have been able to prevent Zhukov from establishing a new line east of Moscow.

2nd SS Division Reich, supported by 10th Panzer, at Borodino had very nearly broken the last Soviet defensive line before Moscow as well as claimed the all weather road in the area; 32nd Soviet Rifle Division beat them to getting into position by one day and sufficiently held up the advance long enough to allow for the rest of the line to harden. There was also other numerous openings earlier in the campaign, but my main point here is that Moscow was far from safe late into the operation.

As to your other cities, let me start with Stalingrad. It was of interest for three reasons: it's position along the Volga made it a hub for the shipment of grain, it's position along the aforementioned river made it an easy defensive point to base the German flank on, and finally it contained a tractor factory that was later converted to tank production (it produced about a fifth of Soviet tanks). Beyond these factors, it offers no real advantages and, should Leningrad and Moscow fall, it's definitely not going to be some great bastion of Soviet resistance; the plan, only cancelled on October 15th, was to move the Soviet capital to Kuibyshev. As for Leningrad, it's importance rested in its industries, location on the Baltic and between Finland and German occupied territory, and its morale value as a center of the Revolution; it's closeness to the front always meant it could never serve as a new capital nor could it anyway due to the encirclement. Disregarding that, as late as the Tikhivin Operation and planning in 1942 (Operation Nordlicht, derailed by the need to clear Crimea as part of Storfang) it was in serious danger of falling outright; advancing on the Volkhov River instead of toward Tikhivin would've cut the supply routes into the city, meaning it'd be starved into submission by early 1941.

Now, taking Leningrad and Moscow both in 1941 is a deathblow to the Soviets. If you review railway maps of the time, it becomes quite apparent that taking Moscow collapses their internal communications and supply networks, as you've effectively sliced it in two. Further, both cities contained a massive amount of industry; just outside of Moscow is where the powerplants that supplied the electrical needs of their aero-industry while Leningrad had the KV tank factories, for a few examples. Taking Leningrad further frees up several hundred thousand German and Finnish troops for operations elsewhere, most prominently for the planned for but never executed operation against the Murmansk railway, which would've cut the Northern Lend Lease route. Finally, by September of 1942, the RSFSR and Central Asia were about at the end of their manpower totals, meaning that the loss of the two cities and ancillary gains moves this up and the logistics to free them and recover lost territories to gain their manpower simply isn't there.

If they split up, which they did and failed at miserably

As should be clear by now, this isn't true.

they'd have smaller numbers against a nation with more soldiers than Hitler had bullets and the German supply lines would be fucked all to hell.

It'd come as a hell of a fucking surprise to the Wehrmacht that they had less than three rounds of ammunition per man throughout the course of the war.

Factor in the T-34 and KV1/2 and you have a pretty good hard counter to most of what the Germans have going for them on the ground at the time.

Not at all; as late as Kursk, the Panzer III with its "Long 50" gun was the predominant German tank, and in the sector where the II SS Corps engaged, they most likely destroyed or rendered temporarily destroyed nearly 800 Soviet tanks to about 40 losses of their own, as per on battlefield analysis and Post-1991 examinations of Soviet records.

If the Russians invade the Germans get home field advantage but they're still dealing with the numbers, the technically superior T-34,

On the whole, I'd consider it a wash. Germans retained superior doctrine, a better corps of officers and NCOs, a technical edge, and being on the defense certainly limits Soviet capabilities. That attacking in 1941 was clearly the better option is not in doubt. See above for the vaunted T-34, which was quite actually a horrid weapon.

and America either having been dragged in by Japan at this point or jumping in to help whoever is left in Western Europe to keep the Russians from owning all the Atlantic beachfront property.

Anybody who claims the Soviets could reach the Atlantic Pre-Cold War, with a straight face, is simply uninformed, to put it mildly.

Hitler was fucked from GO, and it was because they were all incompetent as fuck.

TFW you conquer 80% of Europe and hold if for six years against around 80% of the World's industrial might, and are incompetent somehow.

[Herador]

There's been several comments along this line, but since yours is the most recent, it shall be the one I pick on to address this argument.

I wrote a thing, fucked it up, can't CTRL+Z it at this point, and I'm not willing to put in the effort to do it again.

If it's worth anything I was meme-ing pretty hard and you aren't wrong on some of these points.

[Oil exporting People]

I wrote a thing, fucked it up, can't CTRL+Z it at this point, and I'm not willing to put in the effort to do it again.

If it's worth anything I was meme-ing pretty hard and you aren't wrong on some of these points.

I feel, and you're good. I'm a History Major and like to research the World Wars when I can, so feel free to ask any particular questions/make any comments you want on certain points, instead of the whole thing, if you wish. Same goes for anybody.

[Shikihara]

Also I'd hardly call someone who talked at length about "communist subhumans" even vaguely socialist.

TIL that Proudhon, the father of anarchism and a major socialist figure, wasn't actually a socialist.