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Would you compromise your ideology for survival?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Would you compromise your ideology to join a tribe if doing so gave you the best chance of survival?

No, I would survive some other way or if necessary, or if necessary, die with my integrity.
38
21%
Yes, but only if my survival depended on it (meaning other means were unworkable for some reason)
33
18%
No, every society needs dissenters, and if that reduces my personal survival chances, so be it.
14
8%
Yes, but I'd be like a sleeper agent for the opposition, waiting for my chance to operate against the local tribe from the inside.
34
19%
Yes, survival is my ideology.
16
9%
No, it wouldn't be worth surviving with people I find ideologically poopy.
6
3%
Yes, and I would rise in power via my effectiveness and work to change the tribe.
28
15%
No, I would take on their whole tribe for my ideology, I don't care what the chances are.
14
8%
 
Total votes : 183

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FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever
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Postby FreethinkingAnarchists ResidingWherever » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:30 pm

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:31 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:Why thank you for the compliment and agreeing in a mannerism, as it would affect anyone over a long period of time. This is shown through various examples, let's go with the above argument on someone pretending to be something they are not. Over time, it tends to become the norm to become what you are pretending to be and in that the act becomes habit and belief itself.


So we have not just a context of deception, but gradual transformation into what one finds odious.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I think I would probably still do it to survive (although if Gaozu's group was forming, I guess I'd try to join it but I don't know what use I'd be).

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Insaeldor
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Postby Insaeldor » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:32 pm

Depends on the survival situation. If it's at the totality of an authoritarian regions then no. If I'm stuck in the woods or an isolated area then yes.
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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:33 pm

Yagon wrote:Do you heed one of their suggestions, or do something else?


Probably make a strike attack. Gathering in one area would give the tribe a good chance to assault us when we're all in one place, plus it [the attack, oops!] would cause confusion which could then be used to our advantage. We could always group up when the attack's taking place.
Last edited by Gaozu on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:38 pm

Gaozu wrote:
Yagon wrote:Do you heed one of their suggestions, or do something else?


Probably make a strike attack. Gathering in one area would give the tribe a good chance to assault us when we're all in one place, plus it would cause confusion which could then be used to our advantage. We could always group up when the attack's taking place.


A very fluid defensive method, using your smaller size to make you a more difficult target, and exploiting their larger to make it easier to hit them?

Suppose you launch your first strike, and it successful damages the dominant tribe.

The dominant tribes leadership makes a public statement that you attacked first without provocation because you are evil sympathizers with those dirty outsider migrants and that there must be total war to annihilate you.

The general populace of the large tribe had been told the attack against the 300 migrants would be simple and easy without consequence to them, and now consider that this must mean war. Emissaries from the mid-level leadership of the dominant tribe approach you and wish to open dialogue. They are not happy about the first strike, but many of them hadn't really felt good in the stomach about massacring the 300 migrants.

What do you tell them?

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:38 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:Why thank you for the compliment and agreeing in a mannerism, as it would affect anyone over a long period of time. This is shown through various examples, let's go with the above argument on someone pretending to be something they are not. Over time, it tends to become the norm to become what you are pretending to be and in that the act becomes habit and belief itself.


So we have not just a context of deception, but gradual transformation into what one finds odious.

I am ashamed to admit it, but I think I would probably still do it to survive (although if Gaozu's group was forming, I guess I'd try to join it but I don't know what use I'd be).

Well I am not here to shame you, that's surely not the point. :lol2:
However, I think this thread tests just how much a person can keep their integrity knowing they are going to die for it. Knowing that, if for survival you join dissidence for your beliefs and survival in hope that you will live without having to pretend or pretending until you are within your group. I can understand that, as survival is instinct. All humans look to do is survive, which is an important thing. However, some just can not drop their morals and take up new ones that contradict their teaching or belief.
Last edited by Principality of the Raix on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:40 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:Well I am not here to shame you, that's surely not the point. :lol2:
However, I think this thread tests just how much a person can keep their integrity knowing they are going to die for it. Knowing that, if for survival you join dissidence for your beliefs survival in hope that you will live without having to pretend or pretending until you are within your group. I can understand that, as survival is instinct. All humans look to do is survive, which is an important thing. However, some just can not drop their morals and take up new ones that contradict their teaching or belief.


This raises the interesting point of whether one could even pull it off. It might be difficult to always mask your natural views, and when the dominant tribe says "we have to hang all the gays/minorities/atheists because they are in league with Satan and are using their magic to damage our water supply", it would be hard to not say "You're fuckin' serious with that? Magic?"

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Suicune
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Postby Suicune » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:40 pm

How do I cause positive change in the future if I die today?
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Destructive Government Economic System
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Postby Destructive Government Economic System » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Yagon wrote:
Destructive Government Economic System wrote:Nope.


Would you be loud in your dissent or wait for them to make an issue of it? (or something else?)


I would say loud, since my ideology revolves around Christianity. And as United Muscovite Nations said, I will die for Christ.
Last edited by Destructive Government Economic System on Fri Nov 17, 2017 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Keshiland literally wrote:I would give it a no. A country that lies about how free, or how great, or how humanitarian it is can never be developed. Example, NK lies and says they are democratic and are not, the US lies and says we are free yet we incarcerate millions for a medical plant. See we are basically a larger more populated North Korea.


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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:43 pm

Suicune wrote:How do I cause positive change in the future if I die today?

You don't, however there is such a thing as becoming a martyr for your own belief. Which in a thousand years could result in something like Saint Peter.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:44 pm

Yagon wrote:What do you tell them?


Try to turn them against their own government! They're obviously much more moderate than the high-ups, strike a backroom deal with them. If they help us, we'll make sure they stay in power in some form or something.

Of course, it might not work! But if they feel bad about the 300 then they're not going to want to do the same to 800 after.
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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:Well I am not here to shame you, that's surely not the point. :lol2:
However, I think this thread tests just how much a person can keep their integrity knowing they are going to die for it. Knowing that, if for survival you join dissidence for your beliefs survival in hope that you will live without having to pretend or pretending until you are within your group. I can understand that, as survival is instinct. All humans look to do is survive, which is an important thing. However, some just can not drop their morals and take up new ones that contradict their teaching or belief.


This raises the interesting point of whether one could even pull it off. It might be difficult to always mask your natural views, and when the dominant tribe says "we have to hang all the gays/minorities/atheists because they are in league with Satan and are using their magic to damage our water supply", it would be hard to not say "You're fuckin' serious with that? Magic?"

True, if you pretended you would need to bite your tongue a lot. Even then, that can not say you could do this all the time. After all humans are prone to flaw, and sooner or later; Your real belief will be revealed, unless you converted to the belief that you pretend to worship. As stated, before unless you are willing to go for the full act in pretending and this causes personality and your views(for lack of a better word atm) some major issues.
Last edited by Principality of the Raix on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:46 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:
Suicune wrote:How do I cause positive change in the future if I die today?

You don't, however there is such a thing as becoming a martyr for your own belief. Which in a thousand years could result in something like Saint Peter.


Does the martyring rely on being an example to others?

Would this change the dynamic based on what the likelihood is of that example being known?

(Imagine in one case many will hear of your death and consider it, and in another you are just shot down in your shelter and nobody really hears much about it).

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:49 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:You don't, however there is such a thing as becoming a martyr for your own belief. Which in a thousand years could result in something like Saint Peter.


Does the martyring rely on being an example to others?

Would this change the dynamic based on what the likelihood is of that example being known?

(Imagine in one case many will hear of your death and consider it, and in another you are just shot down in your shelter and nobody really hears much about it).

It would require being an example as most martyrs are examples, some based on their belief and some based on their principals. However they have always tried to lead by example. However you are right, as there are two ways it could go.

The second scenario, is if the vast majority is enjoying and or fine with their religion as it is.
The first scenario, is only if people dislike their religion or seek something better then previously given as shown through history.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:It would require being an example as most martyrs are examples, some based on their belief and some based on their principals. However they have always tried to lead by example. However you are right, as there are two ways it could go.

The second scenario, is if the vast majority is enjoying and or fine with their religion as it is.
The first scenario, is only if people dislike their religion or seek something better then previously given as shown through history.


Right, but what if nobody finds out about your death? If the dominant tribe just wipes out you and some others in the beginning, and your particular passing is not widely known of?

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:54 pm

Gaozu wrote:
Yagon wrote:What do you tell them?


Try to turn them against their own government! They're obviously much more moderate than the high-ups, strike a backroom deal with them. If they help us, we'll make sure they stay in power in some form or something.

Of course, it might not work! But if they feel bad about the 300 then they're not going to want to do the same to 800 after.


Suppose they accept your deal, but it requires one final fight with the dominant tribes existing leadership. Combining the groups you now represent, you can take them, but casualties on both sides will be high, but you would win.

(let's say 200 dead on each side).

Would you do it?

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:58 pm

Toronina wrote:My opinion is live to fight another day. I'm some random person, I'm not going to help bring about a communist state if I'm dead. Just tell them what they want, find a way to leave if possible.

Pretty much this, (without the communism).

I will get my revenge at a latert. date.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ankuran
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Postby Ankuran » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:58 pm

Yeah, I'd do it. Keep my head down and do my best to be invisible or, failing that, unapproachable. Let my dissent stew until either something changes or I snap ("Ol' Bocephus got 'imself speared 'e did! Sayin' 'e can' take it no more an' ended up like a boar on a spit 'e did!"). Some people are lions, some are bears, and some are bulls. Me? I'm a cockroach. I'm not very pretty and my way of life is even worse, but at least I'm alive.

Good thread, btw.

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:00 pm

Yagon wrote:Would you do it?


Absolutely. Once we've defeated them, we'd set up a constitution or a new set of governing rules or something to make sure such oppression would never happen again. We'd establish our own government, and vilify the practices of the tribal group we've defeated. We'd make sure the rights of minorities are respected and that people of all ethnic and social groups are represented both at the local level and at the highest level of governance. We'd also work with artists, musicians and storytellers to make sure children over the next few generations grow up in an inclusive culture with everyone's freedom respected, regardless of factors like which tribe they came from or anything else. I'd say this would be worth some short-term losses.

Hopefully that'd do it!
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Narland
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Postby Narland » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:05 pm

If by compromise my ideology you mean adjust my opinions and culture insofar as it does not defame Christ such as unjustly harming another, yes.
If by compromise my ideology you mean denying the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the glory due his name such as bringing harm to other human beings, it is an emphatic no.
Last edited by Narland on Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:07 pm

Ankuran wrote:Yeah, I'd do it. Keep my head down and do my best to be invisible or, failing that, unapproachable. Let my dissent stew until either something changes or I snap ("Ol' Bocephus got 'imself speared 'e did! Sayin' 'e can' take it no more an' ended up like a boar on a spit 'e did!"). Some people are lions, some are bears, and some are bulls. Me? I'm a cockroach. I'm not very pretty and my way of life is even worse, but at least I'm alive.

Good thread, btw.


I....we...we lost Bocephus? He's dead? Speared, he was?



.........I never wanted this to happen...

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:28 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:It would require being an example as most martyrs are examples, some based on their belief and some based on their principals. However they have always tried to lead by example. However you are right, as there are two ways it could go.

The second scenario, is if the vast majority is enjoying and or fine with their religion as it is.
The first scenario, is only if people dislike their religion or seek something better then previously given as shown through history.


Right, but what if nobody finds out about your death? If the dominant tribe just wipes out you and some others in the beginning, and your particular passing is not widely known of?

Then you got the second scenario. :lol2:
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:32 pm

Narland wrote:If by compromise my ideology you mean adjust my opinions and culture insofar as it does not defame Christ such as unjustly harming another, yes.
If by compromise my ideology you mean denying the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the glory due his name such as bringing harm to other human beings, it is an emphatic no.

You realize the above situation is being played towards the secondary of your compromises, which due to the above situation places you like me in the nil survival for our integrity.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:48 pm

A good question. I don't know how I would react given the choice of staying true to my ideology or death.

I'd like to say I'd stick to my guns, and I probably would if the 'new' ideology was particularly awful, involving things like genocidal tendencies, enforced religion, prohibiting knowledge and so on. On the other hand, if it was a decent or semi-decent society I would rather live than not.

So my answer is a great big 'it depends'.

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Narland
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Anarchy

Postby Narland » Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:51 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:
Narland wrote:If by compromise my ideology you mean adjust my opinions and culture insofar as it does not defame Christ such as unjustly harming another, yes.
If by compromise my ideology you mean denying the Lordship of Jesus Christ and the glory due his name such as bringing harm to other human beings, it is an emphatic no.

You realize the above situation is being played towards the secondary of your compromises, which due to the above situation places you like me in the nil survival for our integrity.

Yep, thankfully God is the God of no-win scenarios. No sane person should like the thought of dying for their conscience sake. The only hope (for the believer on Christ) is the historicity of the resurrection of the Christ. He raised people from the dead as proof of his power and raised himself from the dead as proof of his divinity. I am convinced, better to be a martyr committed to the temporal/temporary flames (or whatever method of execution) on earth, than cowardice on earth and eternal flames thereafter.
Last edited by Narland on Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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