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Would you compromise your ideology for survival?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Would you compromise your ideology to join a tribe if doing so gave you the best chance of survival?

No, I would survive some other way or if necessary, or if necessary, die with my integrity.
38
21%
Yes, but only if my survival depended on it (meaning other means were unworkable for some reason)
33
18%
No, every society needs dissenters, and if that reduces my personal survival chances, so be it.
14
8%
Yes, but I'd be like a sleeper agent for the opposition, waiting for my chance to operate against the local tribe from the inside.
34
19%
Yes, survival is my ideology.
16
9%
No, it wouldn't be worth surviving with people I find ideologically poopy.
6
3%
Yes, and I would rise in power via my effectiveness and work to change the tribe.
28
15%
No, I would take on their whole tribe for my ideology, I don't care what the chances are.
14
8%
 
Total votes : 183

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The Alma Mater
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Founded: May 23, 2004
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby The Alma Mater » Mon Nov 20, 2017 9:49 am

Asherahan wrote:
Menassa wrote:There are things that I would rather die than do.

Idolatry.
Adultery
Murder

Mine would be:

Enslave another being
Rape
Be forced to bow down and worship a thing I do not believe in.


How about reaping the benefits from others doing these things ?
E.g. - would you buy stuff produced by slaves not owned by you ?
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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:11 am

I would certainly compromise my political or social ideologies to survive, as I don't really consider myself an ideologue anyway.

I would not compromise my religion.

My family actually lived through a very similar situation being described in the OP during WWII. They were an ethnic minority in a country overrun by the fascists. The fascists thought everybody in that minority was a communist or a collaborator with the communists, so they started murdering them in large numbers.

Now the main differentiation between groups in that country was language and religion. It was possible to pass yourself off as a member of another ethnic group if you wanted to and I'm sure some people tried. But my family did not trust members of other ethnic groups, especially the dominant majority which had controlled the nation prior to the fascists. So they fled out into the wilderness and hid there for four years until the war ended.

More than likely I would attempt the same thing. I'm aware that the OP says my chances are almost nil, but since it's been done before - by relatives I have that are still living - I would be of the mindset that it could be done again without having to put yourself at the mercy of another ethnic group (in this tribalist situation).
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Yagon
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Yagon » Mon Nov 20, 2017 11:44 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:I would certainly compromise my political or social ideologies to survive, as I don't really consider myself an ideologue anyway.

I would not compromise my religion.

My family actually lived through a very similar situation being described in the OP during WWII. They were an ethnic minority in a country overrun by the fascists. The fascists thought everybody in that minority was a communist or a collaborator with the communists, so they started murdering them in large numbers.

Now the main differentiation between groups in that country was language and religion. It was possible to pass yourself off as a member of another ethnic group if you wanted to and I'm sure some people tried. But my family did not trust members of other ethnic groups, especially the dominant majority which had controlled the nation prior to the fascists. So they fled out into the wilderness and hid there for four years until the war ended.

More than likely I would attempt the same thing. I'm aware that the OP says my chances are almost nil, but since it's been done before - by relatives I have that are still living - I would be of the mindset that it could be done again without having to put yourself at the mercy of another ethnic group (in this tribalist situation).


The chances were set at nil just for purposes of the thought exercise (meaning to examine if one would risk one's life substantially rather than capitulate).

I find it reasonable (and likely with ample historical example) that people could find a way to survive or flee; the OP was merely to test those scenarios in which it came down to compromising or likely dying.

So if for some reason there were no means to flee, and it was your religion they wanted you to compromise, you would rather die?

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Krasny-Volny
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Founded: Nov 20, 2010
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:12 pm

Yagon wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:I would certainly compromise my political or social ideologies to survive, as I don't really consider myself an ideologue anyway.

I would not compromise my religion.

My family actually lived through a very similar situation being described in the OP during WWII. They were an ethnic minority in a country overrun by the fascists. The fascists thought everybody in that minority was a communist or a collaborator with the communists, so they started murdering them in large numbers.

Now the main differentiation between groups in that country was language and religion. It was possible to pass yourself off as a member of another ethnic group if you wanted to and I'm sure some people tried. But my family did not trust members of other ethnic groups, especially the dominant majority which had controlled the nation prior to the fascists. So they fled out into the wilderness and hid there for four years until the war ended.

More than likely I would attempt the same thing. I'm aware that the OP says my chances are almost nil, but since it's been done before - by relatives I have that are still living - I would be of the mindset that it could be done again without having to put yourself at the mercy of another ethnic group (in this tribalist situation).


The chances were set at nil just for purposes of the thought exercise (meaning to examine if one would risk one's life substantially rather than capitulate).

I find it reasonable (and likely with ample historical example) that people could find a way to survive or flee; the OP was merely to test those scenarios in which it came down to compromising or likely dying.

So if for some reason there were no means to flee, and it was your religion they wanted you to compromise, you would rather die?


For the purposes of this mutually exclusive thought exercise (assuming practicing one's religion in secret while outwardly embracing another is not an option) yes, I'd rather die a proverbial Moor than live as a Morisco.
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Yagon
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Yagon » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Yagon wrote:
The chances were set at nil just for purposes of the thought exercise (meaning to examine if one would risk one's life substantially rather than capitulate).

I find it reasonable (and likely with ample historical example) that people could find a way to survive or flee; the OP was merely to test those scenarios in which it came down to compromising or likely dying.

So if for some reason there were no means to flee, and it was your religion they wanted you to compromise, you would rather die?


For the purposes of this mutually exclusive thought exercise (assuming practicing one's religion in secret while outwardly embracing another is not an option) yes, I'd rather die a proverbial Moor than live as a Morisco.


The idea of feigning the religion was presented as an option and was discussed at other places in the thread.

I apologize for not understanding how the thought exercise is mutually exlusive, please help me understand better. (I'm not very smart, I have diagnosed cognitive difficulties, I'm acknowledging up front that you are smarter than me, without sarcasm).

The thought exercise was to isolate an instance where it was compromise or likely die. Help me understand better where its mutually exclusive. (I acknowledge in several instances there have been sub-branches of the exercise where various alternative instances have been put forward and explored, I'm honestly sorry if that has resulted in contradiction across sub-branches).

Could a non-mutually exclusive thought exercise be constructed to examine whether someone would compromise a particular thing rather than die?

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Krasny-Volny
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:43 pm

Yagon wrote:
Krasny-Volny wrote:
For the purposes of this mutually exclusive thought exercise (assuming practicing one's religion in secret while outwardly embracing another is not an option) yes, I'd rather die a proverbial Moor than live as a Morisco.


The idea of feigning the religion was presented as an option and was discussed at other places in the thread.

I apologize for not understanding how the thought exercise is mutually exlusive, please help me understand better. (I'm not very smart, I have diagnosed cognitive difficulties, I'm acknowledging up front that you are smarter than me, without sarcasm).

The thought exercise was to isolate an instance where it was compromise or likely die. Help me understand better where its mutually exclusive. (I acknowledge in several instances there have been sub-branches of the exercise where various alternative instances have been put forward and explored, I'm honestly sorry if that has resulted in contradiction across sub-branches).


This thought exercise is mutually exclusive because its two options are mutually exclusive. You must pick one. You cannot derive a third option or propose some combination of both.

Maybe I'm speaking from the perspective of an ESL instructor here rather than a law or an ethics instructor (law schools are where I see these exercises the most), but I believe mutual exclusivity is inflexible and stifles critical thinking. I would've never presented a hypothetical to any of my students...not that this is the sort of thing my curriculum ever covered in the first place.

A non-mutually exclusive thought exercise would encourage the participants to realistically propose third options, support some combination of the two existing options (ie remaining a crypto adherent of their own faith, as I mentioned above) and explain why, etc.

Could a non-mutually exclusive thought exercise be constructed to examine whether someone would compromise a particular thing rather than die?


Yes. An exercise with immediate consequences. A squad of soldiers are holding guns pointed at your head and are about to pull the trigger unless you choose A or B, etc. The participants may propose various third options, but ultimately the majority will be forced to choose A or B in the spur of that moment because the consequences are immediate and there will be no time to make elaborate preparations to stave off the decision.
Last edited by Krasny-Volny on Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yagon
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Yagon » Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:52 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Yagon wrote:
The idea of feigning the religion was presented as an option and was discussed at other places in the thread.

I apologize for not understanding how the thought exercise is mutually exlusive, please help me understand better. (I'm not very smart, I have diagnosed cognitive difficulties, I'm acknowledging up front that you are smarter than me, without sarcasm).

The thought exercise was to isolate an instance where it was compromise or likely die. Help me understand better where its mutually exclusive. (I acknowledge in several instances there have been sub-branches of the exercise where various alternative instances have been put forward and explored, I'm honestly sorry if that has resulted in contradiction across sub-branches).

Could a non-mutually exclusive thought exercise be constructed to examine whether someone would compromise a particular thing rather than die?


This thought exercise is mutually exclusive because its two options are mutually exclusive. You must pick one. You cannot derive a third option or propose some combination of both.

Maybe I'm speaking from the perspective of an ESL instructor here rather than a law or an ethics instructor (law schools are where I see these exercises the most), but I believe mutual exclusivity is inflexible and stifles critical thinking. I would've never presented a hypothetical to any of my students...not that this is the sort of thing my curriculum ever covered in the first place.

A non-mutually exclusive thought exercise would encourage the participants to realistically propose third options, support some combination of the two existing options (ie remaining a crypto adherent of their own faith, as I mentioned above) and explain why, etc.


Thank you. I apologize, I had understood "mutually exclusive" to mean that the scenario was somehow logically unsound and internally contradictory, but I think what you're saying makes sense.

It definitely is inflexible to only permit two options, so you're right. In the poll options I tried to include some other options, but I'm also interested in those things that people would commit to dying over. Religion seems to come up a lot.

The purpose of isolating the only two options was to illuminate the comparative valuation of the two by narrowing it to them (sort of like creating an artificially controlled experiment to examine a particular aspect, information about which could then be incorporated into the system as a whole). You're very right that in real life it would not be useful in terms of forming an actual response, it was more to examine how much someone valued something over another by narrowing the dynamic.

Thank you for your patience and your input.

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Romanum Dominium
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Founded: Apr 26, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Romanum Dominium » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:18 pm

I suppose this depends on how repugnant I find the new ideology as well as how gruesome my death would be. I would almost definitely refuse to convert to a new religion if refusal means getting shot or stabbed but I'd agree to damn near anything to avoid being burned as a heretic. I wouldn't compromise with a Stalinist or Nazi government, but would probably submit to a run-of-the-mill dictator.

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Yagon
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Founded: May 27, 2017
Democratic Socialists

Postby Yagon » Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:22 pm

Romanum Dominium wrote:I suppose this depends on how repugnant I find the new ideology as well as how gruesome my death would be. I would almost definitely refuse to convert to a new religion if refusal means getting shot or stabbed but I'd agree to damn near anything to avoid being burned as a heretic. I wouldn't compromise with a Stalinist or Nazi government, but would probably submit to a run-of-the-mill dictator.


That's interesting, I hadn't considered factoring in how painful the death would be, I can see where a more painful one might change the calculation.

As for the kind of dictator, how about in each of the following:

Duterte-esque

Theocratic dictator (preacher ruler like the guy in Poltergeist II or something)

Feudalistic Baron dictator (Quinn from "Into the Badlands")

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Democratic Communist Federation
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Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:39 pm

Bardarus wrote:No, not really, they're all Christian Churches but in the Middle East like Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy are Christian Churches in Europe.


The reason I asked is because Armenian Orthodoxy and the Coptic Orthodox Church are both a part of Oriental Orthodoxy (not to be confused with Eastern Orthodoxy).

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Corpus Magnus
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Founded: Aug 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Corpus Magnus » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:14 pm

Asherahan wrote:
Menassa wrote:There are things that I would rather die than do.

Idolatry.
Adultery
Murder

Mine would be:

Enslave another being
Rape
Be forced to bow down and worship a thing I do not believe in.

I'll add a few more:
Denounce my religion
Help someone seriously harm another human in any way (even if I am not involved in the process)
Any sort of assault
Stand by and watch someone kill/seriously harm/sexually assault someone else

But I would not compromise my ideology for survival. All sin, no matter how great, is sin before God.
Corpus Magnus: A militaristic and economically stagnant land of cynical, sarcastic people severely divided by race, social class, and language, oppressed and barely held together by eight bickering, incompetent but ambitious politicians and warriors who supposedly profess loyalty to an all-powerful but rarely present dictator. All hail the Omniscient! Praise to Corpus Magnus!
A 21.6 civilization, according to this index.

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Also known as Republica Conquistadora.

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Senkaku
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Senkaku » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:23 pm

See, if I'm dead, that precludes the possibility of me ever getting revenge on whoever's putting me in whatever awful position. And if they're making me compromise my core beliefs or die, then I'd probably like to be able to turn the tables on them at some point. I wouldn't say that's an absolute, there probably are scenarios where I'd choose death instead, but death's finality is quite frustrating if you want to see some measure of justice against someone who's wronged you.
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Yagon
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Yagon » Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:59 pm

Senkaku wrote:See, if I'm dead, that precludes the possibility of me ever getting revenge on whoever's putting me in whatever awful position. And if they're making me compromise my core beliefs or die, then I'd probably like to be able to turn the tables on them at some point. I wouldn't say that's an absolute, there probably are scenarios where I'd choose death instead, but death's finality is quite frustrating if you want to see some measure of justice against someone who's wronged you.


I can see where payback could be a good motivator. Definitely worked for Mel Gibson where he gets revenge on that guy who fucked him over for $70,000. I forget what it was called.

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Principality of the Raix
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Founded: Sep 05, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Principality of the Raix » Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:21 pm

Yagon wrote:
Senkaku wrote:See, if I'm dead, that precludes the possibility of me ever getting revenge on whoever's putting me in whatever awful position. And if they're making me compromise my core beliefs or die, then I'd probably like to be able to turn the tables on them at some point. I wouldn't say that's an absolute, there probably are scenarios where I'd choose death instead, but death's finality is quite frustrating if you want to see some measure of justice against someone who's wronged you.


I can see where payback could be a good motivator. Definitely worked for Mel Gibson where he gets revenge on that guy who fucked him over for $70,000. I forget what it was called.

Revenge is best served cold. :lol2:
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Luziland
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Luziland » Thu Nov 23, 2017 2:59 pm

Corpus Magnus wrote:
Asherahan wrote:Mine would be:

Enslave another being
Rape
Be forced to bow down and worship a thing I do not believe in.

I'll add a few more:
[...]
Help someone seriously harm another human in any way (even if I am not involved in the process)
[...]

well, i mean, technically, if you help them, you are already somehow involved in the process.

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Corpus Magnus
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Ex-Nation

Postby Corpus Magnus » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:49 pm

Luziland wrote:
Corpus Magnus wrote:I'll add a few more:
[...]
Help someone seriously harm another human in any way (even if I am not involved in the process)
[...]

well, i mean, technically, if you help them, you are already somehow involved in the process.

That's not what I meant. For example, if someone was planning to stab someone else, I would not tell the murderer where the victim is, even if I am not there when the man is stabbed and I am not the one stabbing him.
Corpus Magnus: A militaristic and economically stagnant land of cynical, sarcastic people severely divided by race, social class, and language, oppressed and barely held together by eight bickering, incompetent but ambitious politicians and warriors who supposedly profess loyalty to an all-powerful but rarely present dictator. All hail the Omniscient! Praise to Corpus Magnus!
A 21.6 civilization, according to this index.

OOC: Proud member of the LDS (Mormon) Church.
Also known as Republica Conquistadora.

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The Sauganash Union
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Ex-Nation

Postby The Sauganash Union » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:27 am

I already do for my job.
Handshakes and tie knots. I don't have time for someone who can't master these simple things.

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Zottistan
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Founded: Nov 26, 2011
Ex-Nation

Postby Zottistan » Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:26 pm

You'll likely achieve more by living to fight another day. Integrity's not worth all that much if all it does is get you killed pointlessly. So barring exceptional circumstances no. There are things I would die for but integrity is probably not one of them.

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Sounstian
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Founded: Sep 07, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Sounstian » Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:41 pm

tribe>ideology
As much as it pains me to tolerate my people for the decadent hypocritical mess they've become, it's the right thing to do and to do the opposite would be abandoning them.

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