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Would you compromise your ideology for survival?

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Would you compromise your ideology to join a tribe if doing so gave you the best chance of survival?

No, I would survive some other way or if necessary, or if necessary, die with my integrity.
38
21%
Yes, but only if my survival depended on it (meaning other means were unworkable for some reason)
33
18%
No, every society needs dissenters, and if that reduces my personal survival chances, so be it.
14
8%
Yes, but I'd be like a sleeper agent for the opposition, waiting for my chance to operate against the local tribe from the inside.
34
19%
Yes, survival is my ideology.
16
9%
No, it wouldn't be worth surviving with people I find ideologically poopy.
6
3%
Yes, and I would rise in power via my effectiveness and work to change the tribe.
28
15%
No, I would take on their whole tribe for my ideology, I don't care what the chances are.
14
8%
 
Total votes : 183

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Yagon
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Would you compromise your ideology for survival?

Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:55 pm

Suppose you lived in some ancient land that had dominated by a powerful empire. The empire is in its dissolution cycle and is beginning to come apart, likely with some conflict and disruptive changes in trade, infrastructure, etc. It will be a difficult period, and the unifying/stabilizing effects of the empire will be suddenly withdrawn.

Suppose you are not in a position to leave, and at the time of the disruption you are living in an area where the dominant majority (lets say 80%) are racially/culturally/religiously unified but in a way that contrasts sharply with your personal ideology.

For the sake of argument, suppose that your chances of survival are best served by having strong ties to the local populace, who are of a particularly tribal mentality. Your physical appearance and mannerisms mark you as somewhat of an outsider, but are sufficiently "passable" to the locals that if you practice their religion and broadcast an alignment with their ideology, you are likely to be "accepted" as one of their tribe, increasing your likelihood to survive, although you would have to at least outwardly and in practice embrace ideologies you find odious.

(For the purposes of the exercise, imagine not joining the local "tribe" substantially reduces your chances of survival to almost nil.)

Would you join them?
Last edited by Yagon on Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:57 pm

If it meant compromising my religion, no. Christ is worth dying for.
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Postby Destructive Government Economic System » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:59 pm

Nope.
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Toronina
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Postby Toronina » Fri Nov 17, 2017 1:59 pm

My opinion is live to fight another day. I'm some random person, I'm not going to help bring about a communist state if I'm dead. Just tell them what they want, find a way to leave if possible.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:00 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:If it meant compromising my religion, no. Christ is worth dying for.


Seems reasonable.

Suppose they are also Christians, but are of a subset of Christian belief that has some tenet you find objectionable?

(Only as an illustrative example, suppose they as Christians believe it is necessary to go to war with Muslims, and they consider Islam to be an inherently "evil" religion. Note, I'm not saying most Christians believe this, in fact most Christians I know seem to have no problem living and working alongside Muslims and vice versa, but there are some Christians who consider Islam to be an inherent enemy to Christianity, so imagine the tribe in your area is of this particular stripe.)

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:02 pm

Toronina wrote:My opinion is live to fight another day. I'm some random person, I'm not going to help bring about a communist state if I'm dead. Just tell them what they want, find a way to leave if possible.


Seems reasonable.

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:02 pm

Depending on the circumstances I would externally to a point, but I'd work my hardest to plan an escape or to establish connections with others in the same boat at the same time if possible.

Toronina wrote:My opinion is live to fight another day. I'm some random person, I'm not going to help bring about a communist state if I'm dead. Just tell them what they want, find a way to leave if possible.


Welp beaten to it! :p
Last edited by Gaozu on Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:03 pm

Destructive Government Economic System wrote:Nope.


Would you be loud in your dissent or wait for them to make an issue of it? (or something else?)

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Klorgia1
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Postby Klorgia1 » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:05 pm

If you can't have your opinion, you can't have your life. If friends and Family which depended on me where there, I'd stay around for a while. But if not, than death for me.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:07 pm

Gaozu wrote:Depending on the circumstances I would externally to a point, but I'd work my hardest to plan an escape or to establish connections with others in the same boat at the same time if possible.


This is very interesting.

Suppose among the 20% or so in the area not of the dominant local culture, what would you do with a group of others (your "boatmates") as it were?

If you were chosen as Captain of the Same Boat (meaning a consensus emerged that you would be a good leader), what would you do with groups of the following size:

2 (you and one other person)
5 (you + 4, etc)
12
200
800

(Suppose the dominant tribe's number is about 30,000, split relatively evenly among three cities within 80 miles or so with perhaps 10% being heavily commited "tribalists" able to act in concert).

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Klorgia1 wrote:If you can't have your opinion, you can't have your life. If friends and Family which depended on me where there, I'd stay around for a while. But if not, than death for me.


Would you make a particular direction for that death? (Attempted migration, active resistance, vocal dissidence, or simply doing without the tribes support for survival)?

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UKCS
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Postby UKCS » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:11 pm

Wouldn't anybody? We can all profess to be that "noble" or "courageous", or whichever word shall be used in this, but at the end of the day we're all the same, and basic self-preservation instincts will kick in.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:12 pm

UKCS wrote:Wouldn't anybody? We can all profess to be that "noble" or "courageous", or whichever word shall be used in this, but at the end of the day we're all the same, and basic self-preservation instincts will kick in.


I have to admit for myself if it were necessary to not die, I think I would throw in with the local tribe.

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Yagon wrote:snip!


2 - If it were me and one other person, either try to escape or just become very close to them, we'd try and help each other survive I guess.
5 - If it were 5 of us, smaller chance of helping each other survive and a bigger chance of trying to escape I think.
12 - same as the five but we'd set our priorities on getting out of there!
200 - that's different. Maybe split into cells, try and spread dissent subtly while getting those who want out out.
800 - Maybe try to arm ourselves, plan, become politically involved in terms of trying to set in motion widespread opposition to the regime. Maybe try and establish a sympathetic response to our cause among some of the more liberal-minded members of the majority group. See how it goes.

Of course, I'm just totally guessing! :p
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UKCS
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Postby UKCS » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Yagon wrote:
UKCS wrote:Wouldn't anybody? We can all profess to be that "noble" or "courageous", or whichever word shall be used in this, but at the end of the day we're all the same, and basic self-preservation instincts will kick in.


I have to admit for myself if it were necessary to not die, I think I would throw in with the local tribe.

Oh good, someone agrees with me.

It's really no use lying to yourself. Hell, at the first sign of danger in a scenario as serious as that, I'd probably throw my lot in with the locals instantly.
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Any semblance of the old nation(s) no longer exists. This new nation is approximately 260 years after the last update to the former incarnation of this account. It was physically painful to delete all those factbooks....

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House of Judah
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Postby House of Judah » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:15 pm

If adopting the local culture/ideology does not involve harming others (e.g. human sacrifice, turning over daughters who are still children to be married to a revered 'elder') then sure. The stance of Judaism is that to save ones life, one can do just about anything as long as it does not harm another, and to save the life of another gets the same exemption.

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Naifon
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Postby Naifon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:15 pm

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Dumb Ideologies
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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:16 pm

Obviously yes - I'm not a complete fucking idiot and I do have some rudimentary survival instinct.
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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:20 pm

Yagon wrote:Suppose you lived in some ancient land that had dominated by a powerful empire. The empire is in its dissolution cycle and is beginning to come apart, likely with some conflict and disruptive changes in trade, infrastructure, etc. It will be a difficult period, and the unifying/stabilizing effects of the empire will be suddenly withdrawn.

Suppose you are not in a position to leave, and at the time of the disruption you are living in an area where the dominant majority (lets say 80%) are racially/culturally/religiously unified but in a way that contrasts sharply with your personal ideology.

For the sake of argument, suppose that your chances of survival are best served by having strong ties to the local populace, who are of a particularly tribal mentality. Your physical appearance and mannerisms mark you as somewhat of an outsider, but are sufficiently "passable" to the locals that if you practice their religion and broadcast an alignment with their ideology, you are likely to be "accepted" as one of their tribe, increasing your likelihood to survive, although you would have to at least outwardly and in practice embrace ideologies you find odious.

(For the purposes of the exercise, imagine not joining the local "tribe" substantially reduces your chances of survival to almost nil.)

Would you join them?

While I have not been in a situation like this, exception within the social pecking order as some would claim it. I would take my chances with the nil, even though I hate the 0% of survival. I can not, or rather could not or would not compromise my belief for another that I deem odious. The fact is, the more you tend to practice a religion, even if you do not believe in it. The more it affects the persons own belief system and causes a vast confusion within them. Course that is assuming that their belief, differs greatly from mine. Seeing as for argument sake, they do even though it is not determined on just how much. I could not compromise my belief, just for survival.
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Collectivism score: -67%
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:20 pm

Gaozu wrote:
Yagon wrote:snip!


2 - If it were me and one other person, either try to escape or just become very close to them, we'd try and help each other survive I guess.
5 - If it were 5 of us, smaller chance of helping each other survive and a bigger chance of trying to escape I think.
12 - same as the five but we'd set our priorities on getting out of there!
200 - that's different. Maybe split into cells, try and spread dissent subtly while getting those who want out out.
800 - Maybe try to arm ourselves, plan, become politically involved in terms of trying to set in motion widespread opposition to the regime. Maybe try and establish a sympathetic response to our cause among some of the more liberal-minded members of the majority group. See how it goes.

Of course, I'm just totally guessing! :p


I think we can only guess on as nebulous a premise. So much would depend on specifics of ourselves and the "dominant" group, even in the actual scenario, we'd kind of just be guessing.

Sub-scenario:

You successfully arm your 800, and are of sufficient coherence that the tribe cannot easily overwhelm you without suffering heavy losses yourself. In a negotiation with the dominant tribal leader, they offer you the following:

1). You can live in peace in the region as long as you do not challenge the dominant religion (this includes not proselytizing or attracting others to your own views, you basically cannot recruit from them and doing so would be an act of war with them)

2). Some of your members with advanced training from the previously existing Empire have needed specialist skills, and would be available for paid or bartered providing of those services.

3). The dominant tribe is going to wipe out a local group of about 300 people, migrants who just caught in the wrong area during the collapse. They want you to stay out of it.

Would you agree?

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:21 pm

House of Judah wrote:If adopting the local culture/ideology does not involve harming others (e.g. human sacrifice, turning over daughters who are still children to be married to a revered 'elder') then sure. The stance of Judaism is that to save ones life, one can do just about anything as long as it does not harm another, and to save the life of another gets the same exemption.


That seems like an very reasonable stance.

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Gaozu
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Postby Gaozu » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:23 pm

Yagon wrote:Would you agree?


No, I'd probably try to join forces with the group of 300 and see if there's any others too. They're obviously tyrannical and can't be trusted as any sort of reasonable government, and if they're willing to negotiate even a bit it means we have some leverage already.
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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:23 pm

Principality of the Raix wrote:While I have not been in a situation like this, exception within the social pecking order as some would claim it. I would take my chances with the nil, even though I hate the 0% of survival. I can not, or rather could not or would not compromise my belief for another that I deem odious. The fact is, the more you tend to practice a religion, even if you do not believe in it. The more it affects the persons own belief system and causes a vast confusion within them. Course that is assuming that their belief, differs greatly from mine. Seeing as for argument sake, they do even though it is not determined on just how much. I could not compromise my belief, just for survival.


That's an interesting aspect, would joining the local tribe over time be more than just external behavior to fit in, would it habitually influence your own outlook? I suppose it would, especially over time.

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Yagon
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Postby Yagon » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:27 pm

Gaozu wrote:
Yagon wrote:Would you agree?


No, I'd probably try to join forces with the group of 300 and see if there's any others too. They're obviously tyrannical and can't be trusted as any sort of reasonable government, and if they're willing to negotiate even a bit it means we have some leverage already.


In your group of 800, you have two advisers who each work with and manage a significant sub-group.

One advises to get the 300 to an area you control (your advance planning has left your group with a defensible fortified position), and prepare to repel the main tribe (assume you would take heavy casualties, but the main tribe would likely take heavier, given your preparations).

The other adviser argues to make a surprise first strike against the leadership and important facilities of the dominant tribe, hit them hard and first, then pull back to a defensive position.

Do you heed one of their suggestions, or do something else?

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Principality of the Raix
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Postby Principality of the Raix » Fri Nov 17, 2017 2:28 pm

Yagon wrote:
Principality of the Raix wrote:While I have not been in a situation like this, exception within the social pecking order as some would claim it. I would take my chances with the nil, even though I hate the 0% of survival. I can not, or rather could not or would not compromise my belief for another that I deem odious. The fact is, the more you tend to practice a religion, even if you do not believe in it. The more it affects the persons own belief system and causes a vast confusion within them. Course that is assuming that their belief, differs greatly from mine. Seeing as for argument sake, they do even though it is not determined on just how much. I could not compromise my belief, just for survival.


That's an interesting aspect, would joining the local tribe over time be more than just external behavior to fit in, would it habitually influence your own outlook? I suppose it would, especially over time.

Why thank you for the compliment and agreeing in a mannerism, as it would affect anyone over a long period of time. This is shown through various examples, let's go with the above argument on someone pretending to be something they are not. Over time, it tends to become the norm to become what you are pretending to be and in that the act becomes habit and belief itself.
Prince Hildehrand, Principality of the Raix;Technocratic Allied States President.
Technocratic Forum
I do not use NS stats, but I do use Policies due to the Nation's Goals.
Conservative Libertarian Total-Isolationist Nationalist Reactionary
Collectivism score: -67%
Authoritarianism score: -50%
Internationalism score: -83%
Tribalism score: 33%
Liberalism score: -67%

Pro: Pro-Life, Limited Government, 2nd Amendment, 1st Amendment.
Con: Pro-Choice, Communism, Anarchism, Totalitarianism.

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