Right Wing Discussion Thread X: Pol's closed

[The Parkus Empire]

No more than God is responsible for the evils of monarchs who rule in his name.

It's not comparable. The person I vote for derives his power from my support, and is supposedly beholden to me.

How is that not comparable?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

That's why you never win any elections.

Why would I want to win any elections?

To bring your dream closer to reality of course.

No more than God is responsible for the evils of monarchs who rule in his name.

It's not comparable. The person I vote for derives his power from my support, and is supposedly beholden to me.

But the same is with monarchs and God though.

[The Parkus Empire]

Innocent III repeals the Magna Carta

Benedict XVI says we must subject the world to a global financial authority.

Where's the lie? Where's the mistake? What's wrong with these?

Papism for everyone. One nation, one world, one people, one pope.

We are not one world or one nation.

[United Muscovite Nations]

It's not comparable. The person I vote for derives his power from my support, and is supposedly beholden to me.

How is that not comparable?

Because, as I said, the monarch is acting with my power, which I have given to him freely. I am not a bystander, I am his colleague and employer.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Where's the lie? Where's the mistake? What's wrong with these?

Papism for everyone. One nation, one world, one people, one pope.

We are not one world or one nation.

That's the Orthodox Church's fault.

Yes, even Buddhism is their fault.

[The Parkus Empire]

How is that not comparable?

Because, as I said, the monarch is acting with my power, which I have given to him freely. I am not a bystander, I am his colleague and employer.

And monarchs are the employees of God who are given authority by him.

[The Parkus Empire]

We are not one world or one nation.

That's the Orthodox Church's fault.

Yes, even Buddhism is their fault.

Well, no, it's simply reality.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Because, as I said, the monarch is acting with my power, which I have given to him freely. I am not a bystander, I am his colleague and employer.

And divine monarchs are the employees of God who are given authority by him.

But that is the monarch's purpose, to protect the people from committing the evils of governance themselves. When you have multiple people committing the evils of government, you spread the evils of government around so that it touches as many people as possible.

[The Parkus Empire]

But that is the monarch's purpose, to protect the people from committing the evils of governance themselves.

Noo, not really. Most government even under monarchs was not done by the monarch. People largely governed themselves right down to the law.

[The Parkus Empire]

Government is not necessarily evil, either. Or else parents and clergy are engaging in evils.

[The Parkus Empire]

Dostoevsky's point was not really that government is evil, just that evil largely necessitates it.

[United Muscovite Nations]

But that is the monarch's purpose, to protect the people from committing the evils of governance themselves.

Noo, not really. Most government even under monarchs was not done by the monarch. People largely governed themselves right down to the law.

They were subjects though. It wasn't their choice to commit that evil. It is far better to be a subject than a constituent.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Government is not necessarily evil, either. Or else parents and clergy are engaging in evils.

Government is evil because it necessarily involves harming people to protect society at large, or to protect the interests of society.

[The Parkus Empire]

Noo, not really. Most government even under monarchs was not done by the monarch. People largely governed themselves right down to the law.

They were subjects though. It wasn't their choice to commit that evil. It is far better to be a subject than a constituent.

It was certainly their choice to largely govern themselves. And it made considerable sense in times when national diversity was enormous and local customs and ways of doing things differed from province to province. It certainly made sense in the Roman Empire.

[Aellex]

We need to legalize open-carry swords.

Why not bring back duels too? It would be the only thing lacking to start LARPing as 19th century aristocrats.

[The Parkus Empire]

Government is not necessarily evil, either. Or else parents and clergy are engaging in evils.

Government is evil because it necessarily involves harming people to protect society at large, or to protect the interests of society.

Punishing people is not evil for the state to do. It is evil for us to do because Christ says the individual has no authority to judge or punish, but that authority is given to the state according to the New Testament. It is given to the state by God. Even if punishment did not deter crime or cause any reform whatsoever, it would still be desirable, as punishment of wrongdoing is morally desirable for its own sake, because it is justice. Individuals have no authority to administer justice, and if they do, then God will come down really hard on them when their judgement before him comes due, but states DO have that authority, from God. States are charged by God to judge and punish on his behalf; therefore an individual punishing someone is morally wrong (except in situations sanctioned by God, as a parent with a child), but the state doing so is morally GOOD.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Government is evil because it necessarily involves harming people to protect society at large, or to protect the interests of society.

Punishing people is not evil for the state to do. It is evil for us to do because Christ says the individual has no authority to judge or punish, but that authority is given to the state according to the New Testament. It is given to the state by God. Even if punishment did not deter crime or cause any reform whatsoever, it would still be desirable, as punishment of wrongdoing is morally desirable for its own sake, because it is justice. Individuals have no authority to administer justice, and if they do, then God will come down really hard on them when their judgement before him comes due, but states DO have that authority, from God. States are charged by God to judge and punish on his behalf; therefore an individual punishing someone is morally wrong (except in situations sanctioned by God, as a parent with a child), but the state doing so is morally GOOD.

The state is made up of individuals, so if those individuals are punishing people, such as, in a jury, they are committing evil. A jury or voter is not the state, but if they control the state, then it is them acting through the state, not the state acting itself. The state must not be subject to popular will, so that it doesn't pass its functions along to individuals.

[The Empire of Pretantia]

Punishing people is not evil for the state to do. It is evil for us to do because Christ says the individual has no authority to judge or punish, but that authority is given to the state according to the New Testament. It is given to the state by God. Even if punishment did not deter crime or cause any reform whatsoever, it would still be desirable, as punishment of wrongdoing is morally desirable for its own sake, because it is justice. Individuals have no authority to administer justice, and if they do, then God will come down really hard on them when their judgement before him comes due, but states DO have that authority, from God. States are charged by God to judge and punish on his behalf; therefore an individual punishing someone is morally wrong (except in situations sanctioned by God, as a parent with a child), but the state doing so is morally GOOD.

The state is made up of individuals, so if those individuals are punishing people, such as, in a jury, they are committing evil. A jury or voter is not the state, but if they control the state, then it is them acting through the state, not the state acting itself. The state must not be subject to popular will, so that it doesn't pass its functions along to individuals.

TIL justice is evil.

[United Muscovite Nations]

The state is made up of individuals, so if those individuals are punishing people, such as, in a jury, they are committing evil. A jury or voter is not the state, but if they control the state, then it is them acting through the state, not the state acting itself. The state must not be subject to popular will, so that it doesn't pass its functions along to individuals.

TIL justice is evil.

Even if we accept that it's justice, what about when an innocent man is punished mistakenly?

[The Empire of Pretantia]

TIL justice is evil.

Even if we accept that it's justice, what about when an innocent man is punished mistakenly?

Mistake: made.

[The Parkus Empire]

Punishing people is not evil for the state to do. It is evil for us to do because Christ says the individual has no authority to judge or punish, but that authority is given to the state according to the New Testament. It is given to the state by God. Even if punishment did not deter crime or cause any reform whatsoever, it would still be desirable, as punishment of wrongdoing is morally desirable for its own sake, because it is justice. Individuals have no authority to administer justice, and if they do, then God will come down really hard on them when their judgement before him comes due, but states DO have that authority, from God. States are charged by God to judge and punish on his behalf; therefore an individual punishing someone is morally wrong (except in situations sanctioned by God, as a parent with a child), but the state doing so is morally GOOD.

The state is made up of individuals, so if those individuals are punishing people, such as, in a jury, they are committing evil. A jury or voter is not the state, but if they control the state, then it is them acting through the state, not the state acting itself. The state must not be subject to popular will, so that it doesn't pass its functions along to individuals.

Let us suppose the state is controlled by an autocrat: that autocrat still has the "seal" of authority from God to judge and punish; he is not acting in his capacity as an individual, but as an authorized agent of God; King Bob does not judge and punish as "Bob" but as "King". No individual acting under that seal, is liable for sin (unless he corruptly uses it), because that seal specifically exempts the judgement and punishment from Christ's prohibition of it, because that seal is authorization from God to judge and punish. While you are sitting in a jury, you are acting under that seal; but the moment you go back to your regular life, you aren't.

[The Parkus Empire]

TIL justice is evil.

Even if we accept that it's justice, what about when an innocent man is punished mistakenly?

There are no innocent men.

[Aellex]

There are no innocent men.

Warhammer 40k books aren't supposed to be taken as instruction manuals.

[The Parkus Empire]

There are no innocent men.

Warhammer 40k books aren't supposed to be taken as instruction manuals.

I referencing Maistre, actually. But pretty close, heh heh.

[Salus Maior]

Even if we accept that it's justice, what about when an innocent man is punished mistakenly?

There are no innocent men.

There are people who are not guilty of specific things, however. And should not be punished for something they did not do.