Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Aillyria]

I guess is we retroactively blame precursor ideologies for the actions later interpretations and spin-offs,

Fascism was literally born out of the merger of integral nationalism and Sorelianism, which Sorel played a huge part. So no. It did not have a distant ancestral relationship to Fascism, it was literally it's mother, and a supportive one at that.

Marxism and Socialism in general would be "hateful and bankrupt as well". Weak argument, imho.

Well that is what they are.

Who said anything about "street thugs"? How did you come to that conclusion Sorel was saying that?

Because he wrote a book on it...?

The emphasis on revolutionary violence was really nothing new to syndicalism, and predates his works,

Sorel mystified violence and provided it a sacred purpose in life, which I'm not aware earlier syndicalists did.

Taking direct physical violence against the bourgeoise degenerate aspects of civilization is necessary, not by reform, or comprises.

Beating people's head into the pavement isn't going to "revitalize" civilization, it's just going to make it more brutal and actually degenerate. You also haven't stated what exactly is so bad about Western civilization.

1.) And? I never denied Sorel's role in the development of national syndicalism or his influence on the then nascent National Fascist Movement in Italy.

2.) Socialism hates only two things, injustice and immorality. It is capitalism that is bankrupt, it is the pentacle of systemic injustice and immorality.

3.)I'm assuming you're referring to Reflections on Violence, that's an incredibly reductionist POV on that work. It is far from being a book about "street thugs".

4.) The traditional sentiment of syndicalism is the importance of revolutionary action, with the violence of the general strike against the Bourgeoise being a centerpiece, Sorel merely elaborated on it and gave it a form.

5.) The violence of the general strike, cleaning away the degenerative immoral culture of the Bourgeoisie, and replacing it with values of the warrior-worker Proletariat.

As for the West....a quote: "Without a moral framework, there is nothing left but immediate self-indulgence by some and the path of least resistance by others. Neither can sustain a free society."- Thomas Sowell

[War Gears]

Most of the people in this thread could use a little liberalism.

I'm an ex-liberal after finding out it's basically the ideology of political stagnation

That's incidentally why I left socialism.

[War Gears]

1.) And? I never denied Sorel's role in the development of national syndicalism or his influence on the then nascent National Fascist Movement in Italy.

You minimized it's impact, and it's not really any better than Fascism.

2.) Socialism hates only two things, injustice and immorality.

And Jews, if Proudhon and Sorel are to be believed.

3.)I'm assuming you're referring to Reflections on Violence, that's an incredibly reductionist POV on that work. It is far from being a book about "street thugs".

I don't really care to get into RoV, it's a dumb book. Reading it was a headache.

4.) The traditional sentiment of syndicalism is the importance of revolutionary action, with the violence of the general strike against the Bourgeoise being a centerpiece, Sorel merely elaborated on it and gave it a form.

No, he didn't. Sorel's "violence as revitalization" was inspired by Bergson, who was not a socialist.

5.) The violence of the general strike, cleaning away the degenerative immoral culture of the Bourgeoisie, and replacing it with values of the warrior-worker Proletariat.

This is literally Fascism. Literally.

As for the West....a quote: "Without a moral framework, there is nothing left but immediate self-indulgence by some and the path of least resistance by others. Neither can sustain a free society."- Thomas Sowell

An absence of morality is perhaps better than a morality which is sexist, homophobic, and totalitarian. Also, I'm pretty sure I have a solid moral framework that doesn't rely on beating people.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

See now comments like this just make me laugh at their absurdity.

Yes, someone with corporatist in their sig would find that humorous. It is why I wear my Antifa hats, tshirts, and sweatshirts all over Kansas. I give people a good laugh.

[War Gears]

Yes, someone with corporatist in their sig would that humorous.

Please don't tell me that in spite of all your boasts about being a sociology professor, you're unable to distinguish corporatism from crony capitalism?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That's completely ridiculous, but even if it were true, it's better than Russian, Chinese, or Islamic hegemony.

It is basic 21ˢᵗ-century Marxist theory. That's the punishment you get for being in Left-Wing Discussion Thread III.

[War Gears]

That's completely ridiculous, but even if it were true, it's better than Russian, Chinese, or Islamic hegemony.

It is basic 21ˢᵗ-century Marxist theory. That's the punishment you get for being in Left-Wing Discussion Threat III.

This does not surprise me, Marxism is completely idiotic.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Liberalism is a mental disorder. God help all of you...

Why do so many people on the right insist on explaining the world psychiatrically? Oh, wait, I know.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Please don't tell me that in spite of all your boasts about being a sociology professor, you're unable to distinguish corporatism from crony capitalism?

To you, discussing my profession is boasting? Fascinating. Yes, the corporatocracy is generally made up of people who would just as soon stab each other in the back.

[The Parkus Empire]

Wealth of Nations is like a thousand pages of Enlightenmentese, nobody here has actually read it in full. Marx is "interesting" in that he takes the errors of Smith (labor theory in a closed system) and makes it the core of Marxism, and unfortunately for the world that moativated a century of jihad

The German Ideology is also good.

[Crysuko]

Wealth of Nations is like a thousand pages of Enlightenmentese, nobody here has actually read it in full. Marx is "interesting" in that he takes the errors of Smith (labor theory in a closed system) and makes it the core of Marxism, and unfortunately for the world that moativated a century of jihad

The German Ideology is also good.

I find their relevence in the modern era to be questionable

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The German Ideology is also good.

Aside from the Grundrisse, It is literally my favorite text by Marx. However, a lot of people here don't seem to agree.

[Genivaria]

Liberalism is a mental disorder. God help all of you...

Hello 5 post puppet account.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

This does not surprise me, Marxism is completely idiotic.

Very profound.

[Genivaria]

This does not surprise me, Marxism is completely idiotic.

Very profound.

Your dismissive response to things you disagree with is also 'profound'.

[Crysuko]

Very profound.

Your dismissive response to things you disagree with is also 'profound'.

what is there to respond to, it's just a flat insult with no intelelctual effort in it whatsoever.

[The Parkus Empire]

The German Ideology is also good.

Aside from the Grundrisse, It is literally my favorite text by Marx. However, a lot of people here don't seem to agree.

It is the fundamental basis of Marxism, so it is curious they don't.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

It is the fundamental basis of Marxism, so it is curious they don't.

[The Parkus Empire]

Both liberal and contemporary leftist economics are bs, though. Liberal economics is a pyramid scheme requiring continously increasing and ultimately unsupportable demand while measuring desire by money (leaving out the subjective theory of value when it comes to cash), and positing human will as virtually omnipotent. And leftism, while producing a fine critique of liberalism, is basically a religion when it comes to ideas of a "post scarcity" world where desire and reality completely cease to be distinct (presumably everything is powered and produced by perpetual motion machines).

[Crysuko]

Both liberal and contemporary leftist economics are bs, though. Liberal economics is a pyramid scheme requiring continously increasing and ultimately unsupportable demand while measueimg desire by money (leaving out the subjective theory of value when it comes to cash), and positing human will as virtually omnipotent. And leftism, while producing a fine critique of liberalism, is basically a religion when it comes to ideas of a "post scarcity" world where desire and reality completely cease to be distinct (presumably everything is powered and produced by perpetual motion machines).

That's only really a valid criticism of the idealists, there are more valid leftist economic theories than post scarcity

[War Gears]

This does not surprise me, Marxism is completely idiotic.

Very profound.

Not everything needs to be. If you're going to state bullshit without any semblance of factual arguments, don't be surprised if people just point out it's dumb rather than trying to waste their time by putting effort into something you aren't.

[War Gears]

To you, discussing my profession is boasting?

If only that was all you did.

Yes, the corporatocracy is generally made up of people who would just as soon stab each other in the back.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism

Corporatism is not corporatocracy.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Very profound.

Not everything needs to be. If you're going to state bullshit without any semblance of factual arguments, don't be surprised if people just point out it's dumb rather than trying to waste their time by putting effort into something you aren't.

I will have to keep that in mind.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I can answer that one: The hegemony of the U.S. Empire.

That's completely ridiculous, but even if it were true, it's better than Russian, Chinese, or Islamic hegemony.

That's just a matter of opinion.

[War Gears]

Not everything needs to be. If you're going to state bullshit without any semblance of factual arguments, don't be surprised if people just point out it's dumb rather than trying to waste their time by putting effort into something you aren't.

I will have to keep that in mind.

I'm sure people around you probably do.

That's completely ridiculous, but even if it were true, it's better than Russian, Chinese, or Islamic hegemony.

That's just a matter of opinion.

From the perspective of people who don't like homophobia, blasphemy laws, and authoritarianism. Which should probably be this thread.