Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Tekeristan]

Choose heresy; it's more fun!

Choose anti-semitism, it gives you a purpose in life!

I prefer anti-septic-ism

[The Eternal Aulus]

Choose heresy; it's more fun!

Choose anti-semitism, it gives you a purpose in life!

It's nice to know how memes can give you purpose.

[Tekeristan]

Choose anti-semitism, it gives you a purpose in life!

It's nice to know how memes can give you purpose.

Ribbit.

[Alsheb]

The state is never actively abolished. Demanding such a political act from a revolutionary government is fairly stupid.

The state in Marxist philosophy will gradually become ever more redundant and eventualky wither away. Expecting from a nation such as the USSR or the DPRK that they abolish the state a mere 70 years after the Revolution is a really simplistic and naive demand.

If not 70 years, then when?

Let me put it this way: we're talking about solving thousands, if not tens of thousands of years in which we've had class difference, hierarchical structure, oppression and exploitation.

If you think we can solve all that in such a way that we don't need a state anymore in less than a century, well then, I've got some bad news for you.

[Euslavia]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

[The Eternal Aulus]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vyyovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

Wew. More sectarianism.

[Samnoreg]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

Sounds reactionary but ok

[Marusya Nikiforova]

Clearly if you haven’t heard of it before it therefore does not exist.

You can also say who they are instead of assuming things I think.

Environmental Liberation Front. Google is your friend.

[The Widening Gyre]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

Sounds reactionary but ok

Glad I'm not the only one who caught a whiff of Thermidor emanating from it.

[The Eternal Aulus]

You can also say who they are instead of assuming things I think.

Environmental Liberation Front. Google is your friend.

Literally did nothing.

[Marusya Nikiforova]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

> implying you can have a cause that is against egoism

[Dumb Ideologies]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

My inner contrarian has heard this call and been inspired.

[War Gears]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

In other words, a member of the Nazbol gang.

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

> implying you can have a cause that is against egoism

Because that's totally what an ideology centered around the collective liberation from the capitalist class needs. A self-defeating meme ideology that is basically Rand with a red paint job.

[Marusya Nikiforova]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

In other words, a member of the Nazbol gang.

> implying you can have a cause that is against egoism

Because that's totally what an ideology centered around the collective liberation from the capitalist class needs. A self-defeating meme ideology that is basically Rand with a red paint job.

Red paint? Clearly you misunderstand how much we egoists despise communism. However it shouldn’t be an alien notion that somebody advocating collectivization has something to benefit out of it, and is therefore an egoist cause.

[The Eternal Aulus]

I chose other because I am a Vysovnik. The term Vysovnik comes from the Russian высокий (high, lofty, elevated), since Vysovnism is a movement of those who support the rule of higher principles.

Vysovnism shares the fundamental leftist disdain for individual self-advancement, profit seeking, and exploiation (the practises of capitalism). But instead of advocating for the socialist path to communism (horizontal collectivism), Vysovnism calls for vertical (hierarchical) collectivism, believing it to be the strongest counter against the bourgeoisie's individualism (capitalism).

> implying you can have a cause that is against egoism

Egoism is just a self defeating meme ideology tbh fam.

[Marusya Nikiforova]

> implying you can have a cause that is against egoism

Egoism is just a self defeating meme ideology tbh fam.

We never asked to be a meme.

And the self-defeating aspect is false. Egoism is the ultimate form of liberation, and is a philosophy that leads to the total emancipation of the individual, feee from leviathans and social abstractions. This is something that statist communism, nor any other leftist ideology, can never accomplish.

[Trotskylvania]

Leninists who have a good handle on Marx invariably become left coms.

Leninists who have a good handle on their armrest invariably become left coms

Because Marxism-Leninism is an ideological creature of Stalin's regime, and should be properly referred to as Stalinism, because Stalin and his lackey's were incredibly intellectually dishonest in their utilization of all the classics of Marxism, Lenin included.

I have always understood Trotskyism to be ML as well. That might be my mistake.

It is from Stalin, not Lenin, that we get the travesty of "socialist states", "socialist commodity production," "socialist accumulation", the conflation of the transitional dictatorship of the proletariat with socialism/lower stage communism, the apologetics for insular party autocracy, and other ideological fig-leaves placed over capitalist accumulation.

Do you think socialist state is an oxymoron?

Let's be frank, given the state of working class organization in the world, we are all armchair communists. Just because we oppose LARPing or opportunism doesn't mean we believe in doing nothing.

The Dutch/German left had their own militant party and took part in the radicalism of Weimar Germany, including the failed Ruhr Red Army. And the Italian left were highly active in the struggle until Stalin's hatchet men purged them.

Trotskyism is hard to classify because how opportunistic it is. Trotsky was Stalin's loyal opposition and largely espoused similar policies with different verbiage. Later Trotskyists have taken every position under the sun, some closer to Marx, others just tankies with a different paint job.

Yes, socialist state should be considered an oxymoron. If socialism is at all different from capitalism, then it shouldn't have generalized commodity production, wagedom or a national bourgeoisie. The nation-state form is defined by the existence of a ruling class, usually the national bourgeoisie, so any state form is going to be wrapped up in capitalism.

The role of the dictatorship of the proletariat is to abolish class society. It is progressive abolition of capital, class and state. And Marx considered it a separate epoch from socialism for that reason

[The Eternal Aulus]

Egoism is just a self defeating meme ideology tbh fam.

We never asked to be a meme.

And the self-defeating aspect is false. Egoism is the ultimate form of liberation, and is a philosophy that leads to the total emancipation of the individual, feee from leviathans and social abstractions. This is something that statist communism, nor any other leftist ideology, can never accomplish.

Enjoy your Somalia like situation then. State coercion is needed for a well functioning civilization.

[Marusya Nikiforova]

We never asked to be a meme.

And the self-defeating aspect is false. Egoism is the ultimate form of liberation, and is a philosophy that leads to the total emancipation of the individual, feee from leviathans and social abstractions. This is something that statist communism, nor any other leftist ideology, can never accomplish.

Enjoy your Somalia like situation then. State coercion is needed for a well functioning civilization.

An Ego is not free if it’s living in Somalia and dominated by warlords. Egoism is not a blueprint for society, it’s a resistance to all forms of currently existing social orders.

[The Eternal Aulus]

Enjoy your Somalia like situation then. State coercion is needed for a well functioning civilization.

An Ego is not free if it’s living in Somalia and dominated by warlords. Egoism is not a blueprint for society, it’s a resistance to all forms of currently existing social orders.

The point is that people enjoy submitting others. If you destroy all social orders then new ones will simply arise.

[Marusya Nikiforova]

An Ego is not free if it’s living in Somalia and dominated by warlords. Egoism is not a blueprint for society, it’s a resistance to all forms of currently existing social orders.

The point is that people enjoy submitting others. If you destroy all social orders then new ones will simply arise.

Yes, and we acknowledge that new ones are prone to arise. And so it is the job of the Ego to resist any new ones.

And I don’t care if other people like submitting to authority. I don’t, and as an Ego I have a right to resist, enshrined in my own existence.

[Trotskylvania]

Enjoy your Somalia like situation then. State coercion is needed for a well functioning civilization.

An Ego is not free if it’s living in Somalia and dominated by warlords. Egoism is not a blueprint for society, it’s a resistance to all forms of currently existing social orders.

And like all attempts at theorizing an "enlightened self interest" it can never provide any genuine regard for the Other, nor reckon with our nature as a social animal.

Duties to the self are important. But we have obligations to others that egoism denies. Egoism gives as much reason to be a mercenary capitalist as it does to be a communist

[Marusya Nikiforova]

An Ego is not free if it’s living in Somalia and dominated by warlords. Egoism is not a blueprint for society, it’s a resistance to all forms of currently existing social orders.

And like all attempts at theorizing an "enlightened self interest" it can never provide any genuine regard for the Other, nor reckon with our nature as a social animal.

Duties to the self are important. But we have obligations to others that egoism denies. Egoism gives as much reason to be a mercenary capitalist as it does to be a communist

But under capitalism I’m being oppressed by the employer. Capitalism is as contradictory to the egoist cause as communism.

[Northern Davincia]

And like all attempts at theorizing an "enlightened self interest" it can never provide any genuine regard for the Other, nor reckon with our nature as a social animal.

Duties to the self are important. But we have obligations to others that egoism denies. Egoism gives as much reason to be a mercenary capitalist as it does to be a communist

But under capitalism I’m being oppressed by the employer. Capitalism is as contradictory to the egoist cause as communism.

Are there any communes in your area?
Or, better yet, an airport?

[United Muscovite Nations]

Why should we draw the line there? And how does cultivating a culture of sin not negatively harm others?

The reason why we should draw the line there, is because it is the only rational place to draw the line.

As for your other question, because your ideas about what are and are not sin, and therefore, harmful to others, are not entirely objectively proveable.

Gren is very good at asserting that most Christian practices throughout Christian history are against Christianity. It's easy when you define your religion in accordance to your own beliefs instead of ideologically submitting to God.

If I wanted to define my religion in accordance with my own beliefs, I wouldn't call myself a Christian. I'd L. Ron Hubbard it. Because it would be much easier that way.

How can you prove that it’s the only rational line.

Thinking sin must be objectively provable is subjugating your Christianity to your secularism.

If you don’t get your ideas on Christianity from liberalism, then why is it that you always condemn traditional Christianity as unChristian?

The most ironic part of your attacks on traditional Christianity is that you condemn the idea of heresy (i.e. the idea that there are theological views that are absolutely wrong), but then use this idea to push your headcanon by saying things like “the idea behind Christianity is...” or “conservative Christianity is wrong about what Paul meant.” You simultaneously deny that heresy exists, while decrying those brainwashed plebs (as you imagine us) on the CDT as having corrupted the faith through false ideas, which basically accuses us of heresy.