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Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What type of leftist are you?

Left-leaning Centrist
105
13%
Left/Social Liberal
74
9%
Social Democrat
115
14%
Democratic Socialist
139
17%
Marxist Communist
139
17%
Social Anarchist
50
6%
Individualist Anarchist
38
5%
Revolutionary Syndicalist
39
5%
Communalist
27
3%
Other (Please Post)
71
9%
 
Total votes : 797

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United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11230
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:43 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The military structure was awful. More people were purged for being drunk on the job than for political reasons.

I've heard 101 justification for this by Stalinists. The best I heard was that Stalin was trying to eliminate rape culture in the Red Army.

Yeah, that's a stretch, but it's true that there were criminal elements in the Red Army that Stalin purged.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Bureaucratic Collectivist.
The Prayer of the Russians wrote:God, save the Tsar! To the glorious one, long days. Give on this earth! To the subduer of the proud, To the keeper of the weak To the comforter of everyone, Grant everything!
Yegor Ligachyov wrote:Public ownership unites, but private ownership disunites people's interests and indisputably causes social stratification of society.... For what purpose was perestroika started? For the purpose of most fully using the potential of socialism. Then does the sale of enterprises into private hands really promote the revealing of the possibilities inherent in the socialist system? No, it does not.

User avatar
The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40000
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:45 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:The military structure was awful. More people were purged for being drunk on the job than for political reasons.

I've heard 101 justification for this by Stalinists. The best I heard was that Stalin was trying to eliminate rape culture in the Red Army.

He did a less than thorough job then. A bit unlike him.

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The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40000
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:46 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:I've heard 101 justification for this by Stalinists. The best I heard was that Stalin was trying to eliminate rape culture in the Red Army.

Yeah, that's a stretch, but it's true that there were criminal elements in the Red Army that Stalin purged.


If he did not I would be shocked.

User avatar
Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:58 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:I have to disagree with the impact that has been traditionally ascribed to the Great Purge. Military documents from the exercises in 1935 show that the Red Army was awful before the purge, and Stalin may have been correct to blame this awfulness on the lack of formal training in the military.

Agriculture, I agree with, but I'd dispute that that resulted just from him.


I believe it's been rather extensively proven that Stalin's purges worsened the already poorly organized Red Army. There's a decent 10-minute video that summarizes his devastating effects on the Soviet military rather succinctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiA8dKNcjjk

As for the famines, had he not catered to every whim of Lysenko, it's unlikely the effects would have been so utterly devastating.

Additionally, the correlation between dekulakization and the utter clusterfuck that was the mishandling of the newly collectivized farms is rather clear-cut, and the blame for the former quite squarely falls with Stalin.

"Worsened" is disputable as any reasonable person could tell you that in the long-run purging disloyal officers from your military and bringing it under the reins of governance is a good thing. If not, we would have a similar situation to the ones in Africa or other destabilized regions if Stalin hadn't done this. For example, soviet officers defecting in Operation Barbarossa was definitely a thing and they formed the basis for the Russian Liberation Army which worked with the Wehrmacht. It is a fair criticism to say that he was overzealous in persecuting party members and legitimately loyal people, however, some people seem to find injustices a-o-kay when it's directed towards communists with integrity.

On the famines, no, he did not "starve 10 million people to death before he figured out how agriculture works" as Stalin didn't have the technology to change when the sky rained, or even have control of the food supply. Most cattle and grain was in the hands of the kulaks, which you cite their liquidation for being one of the causes for famine. Reminder that after kulak liquidation and collectivization, famine ended for good whereas it was usually cyclical in these feudal societies.

Report from one of the leading researchers on famine, Tauger, on the naturally-based problems of farming in the Soviet Union:

https://www.newcoldwar.org/archive-of-w ... et-union/=

Grain production:

Image

Report on Soviet droughts and other problems farming in that area from 1981:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Education_and ... iction.pdf

User avatar
United Muscovite Nations
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11230
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:06 pm

Republican Corentia wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
I believe it's been rather extensively proven that Stalin's purges worsened the already poorly organized Red Army. There's a decent 10-minute video that summarizes his devastating effects on the Soviet military rather succinctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiA8dKNcjjk

As for the famines, had he not catered to every whim of Lysenko, it's unlikely the effects would have been so utterly devastating.

Additionally, the correlation between dekulakization and the utter clusterfuck that was the mishandling of the newly collectivized farms is rather clear-cut, and the blame for the former quite squarely falls with Stalin.

"Worsened" is disputable as any reasonable person could tell you that in the long-run purging disloyal officers from your military and bringing it under the reins of governance is a good thing. If not, we would have a similar situation to the ones in Africa or other destabilized regions if Stalin hadn't done this. For example, soviet officers defecting in Operation Barbarossa was definitely a thing and they formed the basis for the Russian Liberation Army which worked with the Wehrmacht. It is a fair criticism to say that he was overzealous in persecuting party members and legitimately loyal people, however, some people seem to find injustices a-o-kay when it's directed towards communists with integrity.

On the famines, no, he did not "starve 10 million people to death before he figured out how agriculture works" as Stalin didn't have the technology to change when the sky rained, or even have control of the food supply. Most cattle and grain was in the hands of the kulaks, which you cite their liquidation for being one of the causes for famine. Reminder that after kulak liquidation and collectivization, famine ended for good whereas it was usually cyclical in these feudal societies.

Report from one of the leading researchers on famine, Tauger, on the naturally-based problems of farming in the Soviet Union:

https://www.newcoldwar.org/archive-of-w ... et-union/=

Grain production:

Image

Report on Soviet droughts and other problems farming in that area from 1981:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Education_and ... iction.pdf

To be fair, much of the reforms implemented by Stalin to agriculture greatly overestimated their own success, and that played a major role in the famine. For example, Stalin believed that the Soviet government could replace draft animals much more quickly than it really could.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Bureaucratic Collectivist.
The Prayer of the Russians wrote:God, save the Tsar! To the glorious one, long days. Give on this earth! To the subduer of the proud, To the keeper of the weak To the comforter of everyone, Grant everything!
Yegor Ligachyov wrote:Public ownership unites, but private ownership disunites people's interests and indisputably causes social stratification of society.... For what purpose was perestroika started? For the purpose of most fully using the potential of socialism. Then does the sale of enterprises into private hands really promote the revealing of the possibilities inherent in the socialist system? No, it does not.

User avatar
Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:12 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
A gamble worth taking.

Other methods were available that didn't involve cuckolding the entire military structure.

You say it was worth taking, but if a Bonaparte appeared you would say, "inevitable".


Frankly, if you offer people better wages, and ostracize the few troublemakers that remain, that's generally enough to keep an officer corps in line.

User avatar
Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:15 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Republican Corentia wrote:"Worsened" is disputable as any reasonable person could tell you that in the long-run purging disloyal officers from your military and bringing it under the reins of governance is a good thing. If not, we would have a similar situation to the ones in Africa or other destabilized regions if Stalin hadn't done this. For example, soviet officers defecting in Operation Barbarossa was definitely a thing and they formed the basis for the Russian Liberation Army which worked with the Wehrmacht. It is a fair criticism to say that he was overzealous in persecuting party members and legitimately loyal people, however, some people seem to find injustices a-o-kay when it's directed towards communists with integrity.

On the famines, no, he did not "starve 10 million people to death before he figured out how agriculture works" as Stalin didn't have the technology to change when the sky rained, or even have control of the food supply. Most cattle and grain was in the hands of the kulaks, which you cite their liquidation for being one of the causes for famine. Reminder that after kulak liquidation and collectivization, famine ended for good whereas it was usually cyclical in these feudal societies.

Report from one of the leading researchers on famine, Tauger, on the naturally-based problems of farming in the Soviet Union:

https://www.newcoldwar.org/archive-of-w ... et-union/=

Grain production:

Image

Report on Soviet droughts and other problems farming in that area from 1981:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Education_and ... iction.pdf

To be fair, much of the reforms implemented by Stalin to agriculture greatly overestimated their own success, and that played a major role in the famine. For example, Stalin believed that the Soviet government could replace draft animals much more quickly than it really could.

I haven't read much about collectivization or reforms before the famines, but I wouldn't doubt that they would have been ineffective in curbing a rather inevitable drop in production. The Government was still getting things sorted out.

User avatar
Trotskylvania
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 17045
Founded: Jul 07, 2006
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Trotskylvania » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:15 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Genivaria wrote:So what happened to the officers from the Imperial army?
Purged?

There were still a few, but the civil war was 19 years earlier by 1936, many had retired. The most notable would be Marshal of the Soviet Union, Semyon Budyonny, who had been a cavalry officer in the Imperial Army.

But, also remember that that meant that these men were educated mostly before the First World War, so their education was only really valuable in a theoretical sense.

But the role of the military purges, particularly the big show trials, had nothing to do with military efficacy and everything to do with perceived disloyalty to the regime.

Many of the officers purged were competent, both in the study of military theory as well as battlefield application. The purges attacked the good and the bad with equal enthusiasm. And it was the manner of the purge more than the mere removal of officers that was so destructive.

As Army Chief of Staff, General George C. Marshall conducted his own systematic purge of the US Army on the eve of WW2. But those officers didn't end up in mass graves. They lost their commands, were retired, demoted or otherwise removed from the Army establishment to make way for new blood. And the loss of a command was not a permanent black mark on someone's record, they were given chances to learn from failure, improve and prove themselves.

By killing or imprisoning tens of thousands of officers, Stalin's purges had a chilling effect in the military establishment that promoted rigid orthodoxy, and suppressed innovation. Surviving officers, fearing for their lives, no longer took risks in training especially with new equipment lest they be accused of "wrecking". They developed depression and alcoholism to cope with the existential terror. And the purges hit the very institutions needed most for the expansion of the Red Army: the military academies, which remained understaffed and had numerous officers arrested on dubious charges.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Ultra - The Left Wing of the Impossible
Putting the '-sadism' in Posadism


"The hell of capitalism is the firm, not the fact that the firm has a boss."- Bordiga

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Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:17 pm

Republican Corentia wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
I believe it's been rather extensively proven that Stalin's purges worsened the already poorly organized Red Army. There's a decent 10-minute video that summarizes his devastating effects on the Soviet military rather succinctly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AiA8dKNcjjk

As for the famines, had he not catered to every whim of Lysenko, it's unlikely the effects would have been so utterly devastating.

Additionally, the correlation between dekulakization and the utter clusterfuck that was the mishandling of the newly collectivized farms is rather clear-cut, and the blame for the former quite squarely falls with Stalin.

"Worsened" is disputable as any reasonable person could tell you that in the long-run purging disloyal officers from your military and bringing it under the reins of governance is a good thing. If not, we would have a similar situation to the ones in Africa or other destabilized regions if Stalin hadn't done this. For example, soviet officers defecting in Operation Barbarossa was definitely a thing and they formed the basis for the Russian Liberation Army which worked with the Wehrmacht. It is a fair criticism to say that he was overzealous in persecuting party members and legitimately loyal people, however, some people seem to find injustices a-o-kay when it's directed towards communists with integrity.

On the famines, no, he did not "starve 10 million people to death before he figured out how agriculture works" as Stalin didn't have the technology to change when the sky rained, or even have control of the food supply. Most cattle and grain was in the hands of the kulaks, which you cite their liquidation for being one of the causes for famine. Reminder that after kulak liquidation and collectivization, famine ended for good whereas it was usually cyclical in these feudal societies.

Report from one of the leading researchers on famine, Tauger, on the naturally-based problems of farming in the Soviet Union:

https://www.newcoldwar.org/archive-of-w ... et-union/=

Grain production:

Image

Report on Soviet droughts and other problems farming in that area from 1981:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Education_and ... iction.pdf


Ah yes, because I'm sure Lysenkoism, along with the idea that you can just plant crops in soil ad infinitum with zero soil degradation had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holodomor, and broader Russian famines that wiped out peasants by the millions.

It was all the doing of the evil kulaks you see. Truly Stalin was justified in massacring them all, along with their children.

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Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:24 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Republican Corentia wrote:"Worsened" is disputable as any reasonable person could tell you that in the long-run purging disloyal officers from your military and bringing it under the reins of governance is a good thing. If not, we would have a similar situation to the ones in Africa or other destabilized regions if Stalin hadn't done this. For example, soviet officers defecting in Operation Barbarossa was definitely a thing and they formed the basis for the Russian Liberation Army which worked with the Wehrmacht. It is a fair criticism to say that he was overzealous in persecuting party members and legitimately loyal people, however, some people seem to find injustices a-o-kay when it's directed towards communists with integrity.

On the famines, no, he did not "starve 10 million people to death before he figured out how agriculture works" as Stalin didn't have the technology to change when the sky rained, or even have control of the food supply. Most cattle and grain was in the hands of the kulaks, which you cite their liquidation for being one of the causes for famine. Reminder that after kulak liquidation and collectivization, famine ended for good whereas it was usually cyclical in these feudal societies.

Report from one of the leading researchers on famine, Tauger, on the naturally-based problems of farming in the Soviet Union:

https://www.newcoldwar.org/archive-of-w ... et-union/=

Grain production:

Image

Report on Soviet droughts and other problems farming in that area from 1981:

https://www.nass.usda.gov/Education_and ... iction.pdf


Ah yes, because I'm sure Lysenkoism, along with the idea that you can just plant crops in soil ad infinitum with zero soil degradation had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holodomor, and broader Russian famines that wiped out peasants by the millions.

It was all the doing of the evil kulaks you see. Truly Stalin was justified in massacring them all, along with their children.

I know one way you can be sure - by actually reading things and not commenting on things you don't know about and making a strawman when you're confronted.

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Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:32 pm

Republican Corentia wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Ah yes, because I'm sure Lysenkoism, along with the idea that you can just plant crops in soil ad infinitum with zero soil degradation had nothing whatsoever to do with the Holodomor, and broader Russian famines that wiped out peasants by the millions.

It was all the doing of the evil kulaks you see. Truly Stalin was justified in massacring them all, along with their children.

I know one way you can be sure - by actually reading things and not commenting on things you don't know about and making a strawman when you're confronted.


Maybe actually read up on Soviet agricultural policies of the era, as well as Lysenkoism and the Holodomor, and actually form an educated understanding of how ideologically driven it was with zero fucks being given towards practicality.

Or just continue being an apologist for incompetence on a mass scale. Frankly, it helps to make my point.

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Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:37 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Republican Corentia wrote:I know one way you can be sure - by actually reading things and not commenting on things you don't know about and making a strawman when you're confronted.


Maybe actually read up on Soviet agricultural policies of the era, as well as Lysenkoism and the Holodomor, and actually form an educated understanding of how ideologically driven it was with zero fucks being given towards practicality.

Or just continue being an apologist for incompetence on a mass scale. Frankly, it helps to make my point.

Two of the three sources I gave you were specifically from non-communists (the other one was production estimates from the Soviets directly), one of those two being directly from the U.S. Government. Pray tell how I'm apologizing for incompetence and not just correcting your grossly incorrect "I skimmed over the Holodomor and Lysenkoism entries on wikipedia" takes?
Last edited by Republican Corentia on Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:47 pm

Republican Corentia wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Maybe actually read up on Soviet agricultural policies of the era, as well as Lysenkoism and the Holodomor, and actually form an educated understanding of how ideologically driven it was with zero fucks being given towards practicality.

Or just continue being an apologist for incompetence on a mass scale. Frankly, it helps to make my point.

Two of the three sources I gave you were specifically from non-communists (the other one was production estimates from the Soviets directly), one of those two being directly from the U.S. Government. Pray tell how I'm apologizing for incompetence and not just correcting your grossly incorrect "I skimmed over the Holodomor and Lysenkoism entries on wikipedia" takes?


You completely ignore the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine, write it off as natural occurrences, and proceed to cop-out by blaming the kulaks for having endured smaller scale famines in the past.

You cherry-pick the data that pleases you, cite it as the only relevant factor, and ignore all the rest. So yes, you are an apologist for incompetence.

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Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:11 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Republican Corentia wrote:Two of the three sources I gave you were specifically from non-communists (the other one was production estimates from the Soviets directly), one of those two being directly from the U.S. Government. Pray tell how I'm apologizing for incompetence and not just correcting your grossly incorrect "I skimmed over the Holodomor and Lysenkoism entries on wikipedia" takes?


You completely ignore the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine, write it off as natural occurrences, and proceed to cop-out by blaming the kulaks for having endured smaller scale famines in the past.

You cherry-pick the data that pleases you, cite it as the only relevant factor, and ignore all the rest. So yes, you are an apologist for incompetence.

I'm "completely ignoring the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine" despite telling you why collectivization stopped famines for good? Wew. I'm actually doing something called a counter-argument in reply to several things you've said caused the Holodomor, including:

1. Collectivization, despite evidence ostensibly showing that this was not true and collectivization actually propelled the USSR's production of grain.
2. Dekulakization, despite actual instances of refusing to let grain be taken by officials seeking to feed a starving populace, their control of the grain market, etc. The class interest of the kulaks was more of a factor itself, rather than the policies taken against them.
3. The prevalence of Lysenkoism actually being practiced and causing the famine, which is not mentioned as a cause in either of the 2 sources I gave you, or even any sources I've read that could prove this. Rather they mention the frequent droughts the grain-producing area of the USSR experienced.
4. That this was a deliberate genocide, or as you've now switched to, just some silly fuck-up by the Soviets that could have been easily solved if it were not for the communist ideology. Which is also demonstrably false.
Last edited by Republican Corentia on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Democratic Communist Federation
Minister
 
Posts: 2654
Founded: Jul 14, 2017
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Democratic Communist Federation » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:48 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:Humanism of today came out of the renaissance.


Not really. More the Enlightenment.
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Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:52 pm

Republican Corentia wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
You completely ignore the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine, write it off as natural occurrences, and proceed to cop-out by blaming the kulaks for having endured smaller scale famines in the past.

You cherry-pick the data that pleases you, cite it as the only relevant factor, and ignore all the rest. So yes, you are an apologist for incompetence.

I'm "completely ignoring the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine" despite telling you why collectivization stopped famines for good? Wew. I'm actually doing something called a counter-argument in reply to several things you've said caused the Holodomor, including:

1. Collectivization, despite evidence ostensibly showing that this was not true and collectivization actually propelled the USSR's production of grain.
2. Dekulakization, despite actual instances of refusing to let grain be taken by officials seeking to feed a starving populace, their control of the grain market, etc. The class interest of the kulaks was more of a factor itself, rather than the policies taken against them.
3. The prevalence of Lysenkoism actually being practiced and causing the famine, which is not mentioned as a cause in either of the 2 sources I gave you, or even any sources I've read that could prove this. Rather they mention the frequent droughts the grain-producing area of the USSR experienced.
4. That this was a deliberate genocide, or as you've now switched to, just some silly fuck-up by the Soviets that could have been easily solved if it were not for the communist ideology. Which is also demonstrably false.


Ah yes, the same collectivization that literally caused the largest famine in Russian history, wiping out millions. As I already told you, multiple times, it was quite literally the OVERPRODUCTION OF GRAIN that used up the soil and caused the famine. You completely ignore the effects of soil degradation, which is precisely what occurred after collectivization. The thorough massacring of the kulaks completely wiped out the class of people who actually knew how to manage the farms, replacing them with Lysenkoist idiots who thought they could till the fields ad inifinitum with zero crop rotation. Again, you're cherrypicking data and sources so as to blame it all on natural happenstance and bad luck, even though this was blatantly not the case in the slightest. It is due to the complete and utter incompetence of the Politburo and the process of collectivization, as well as the damning effects of dekulakazition and adoption of Lysenkoism as agricultural policy, that ultimately caused the famine.

You're quite literally being an apologist for people who intentionally mass-murdered over a million peasants because they were slightly wealthier than other peasants, then through sheer incompetence caused the deaths of even more millions of people because they didn't understand basic agriculture.
Last edited by Sanctissima on Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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War Gears
Minister
 
Posts: 2473
Founded: Jul 02, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby War Gears » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:22 pm

Genivaria wrote:Funny, since my fellow liberals would accuse me of being a fascist.


They accuse everyone of being a Fascist.
Parasparopagraho Jīvānām.

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Bakery Hill
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 10593
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bakery Hill » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:29 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
I guess liberty and freedom only applied to whitey. :p



tfw, you're anti-monarchy but also fiercely nationalist.

Sorry mate, but no can do. You had your two chances during the War of Independence and 1812.

Your flag is a leaf. A LEAF.
We're all Americans some by continent some by country, lets just make it one and the same yeah? :p

As an aside I just took a Pew Research Political quiz and even after saying that I supported the military, foreign intervention, and American nationalism I'm still a liberal democrat.
Funny, since my fellow liberals would accuse me of being a fascist.

That's just basic neoconservatism. But that's associated with George Bush and the Republicans now.
Proud Founder of the Committee for Proletarian Morality and Chads for Marxism


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Republican Corentia
Spokesperson
 
Posts: 126
Founded: Jun 25, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby Republican Corentia » Sat Dec 16, 2017 8:42 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
Republican Corentia wrote:I'm "completely ignoring the effects of Soviet agricultural policy on the famine" despite telling you why collectivization stopped famines for good? Wew. I'm actually doing something called a counter-argument in reply to several things you've said caused the Holodomor, including:

1. Collectivization, despite evidence ostensibly showing that this was not true and collectivization actually propelled the USSR's production of grain.
2. Dekulakization, despite actual instances of refusing to let grain be taken by officials seeking to feed a starving populace, their control of the grain market, etc. The class interest of the kulaks was more of a factor itself, rather than the policies taken against them.
3. The prevalence of Lysenkoism actually being practiced and causing the famine, which is not mentioned as a cause in either of the 2 sources I gave you, or even any sources I've read that could prove this. Rather they mention the frequent droughts the grain-producing area of the USSR experienced.
4. That this was a deliberate genocide, or as you've now switched to, just some silly fuck-up by the Soviets that could have been easily solved if it were not for the communist ideology. Which is also demonstrably false.


Ah yes, the same collectivization that literally caused the largest famine in Russian history, wiping out millions. As I already told you, multiple times, it was quite literally the OVERPRODUCTION OF GRAIN that used up the soil and caused the famine. You completely ignore the effects of soil degradation, which is precisely what occurred after collectivization. The thorough massacring of the kulaks completely wiped out the class of people who actually knew how to manage the farms, replacing them with Lysenkoist idiots who thought they could till the fields ad inifinitum with zero crop rotation. Again, you're cherrypicking data and sources so as to blame it all on natural happenstance and bad luck, even though this was blatantly not the case in the slightest. It is due to the complete and utter incompetence of the Politburo and the process of collectivization, as well as the damning effects of dekulakazition and adoption of Lysenkoism as agricultural policy, that ultimately caused the famine.

You're quite literally being an apologist for people who intentionally mass-murdered over a million peasants because they were slightly wealthier than other peasants, then through sheer incompetence caused the deaths of even more millions of people because they didn't understand basic agriculture.

>the same collectivization that caused the largest famine in Russian history

How?

>"OVERPRODUCTION OF GRAIN REEE"

You never mentioned overproduction of grain. Are you getting flustered or something? Funny how we're talking about a famine but you seem to be talking about overproduction, kek.

>"The thorough massacring of the kulaks completely wiped out the class of people who actually knew how to manage the farms"

Kulaks weren't the only ones who knew how to farm. Once again you're pulling shit out of your ass. The people who literally voluntarily went to these collectivized farms were also peasants too.

>"It is due to the complete and utter incompetence of the Politburo and the process of collectivization, as well as the damning effects of dekulakazition and adoption of Lysenkoism as agricultural policy, that ultimately caused the famine."

Wew boy it's like you're on repeat, goddamn. So uh, I guess the U.S. Government was wrong about the routine droughts in the area happening? Those are completely unrelated to the famine? Elaborate your position rather than just repeating yourself over and over gain, please.

>"You're quite literally being an apologist for people who intentionally mass-murdered over a million peasants because they were slightly wealthier than other peasants, then through sheer incompetence caused the deaths of even more millions of people because they didn't understand basic agriculture."

BAYSIC AGROCULCHURE 101

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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:50 am

Famines had always been common in Russia.

Communism ended them.
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Dejanic
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Postby Dejanic » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:53 am

Questers wrote:Famines had always been common in Russia.

Communism ended them.

Ukraine isn't Russia, Communism never existed in either countries.

I don't know about Socialism ending famines in the region, but I know that China for example had a history of great famines spanning thousands of years and that Mao's "great famine" was the last ever famine and wasn't even that great compared to previous famines which had killed millions more people than Mao's famine. The capitalist media won't tell you this though.

Of course it could have been avoided and there was terrible mismanagement (I'm no fan of Mao) but it certainly wasn't a singular, out of the blue famine; and it was also the last famine.
Last edited by Dejanic on Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:57 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Questers
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Postby Questers » Sun Dec 17, 2017 6:59 am

Whether Ukraine is Russia or not is a massive debate that's totally pointless to have here and now, but the meaning of what I say by "Russia" and "Communism" meaning actually "The area encompassing the former Russian Empire and Soviet Union" and "the policies implemented throughout the existence of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union" is really obvious. Stop being autistic.

Anyway, it's true. The last big famines in both Russia and China were the final famines in those countries and socialist agricultural policies ended a millenia-long history of fairly regular, devastating famine. Russia had famines in the past that nearly wiped out a third of the country's population. When we look at Holodomor and we're like oh my god so bad a famine, we don't realise that was a fairly regular Russian experience anyway. Food security was one of the major CPSU achievements.
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Postby Dejanic » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:03 am

Questers wrote:Whether Ukraine is Russia or not is a massive debate that's totally pointless to have here and now, but the meaning of what I say by "Russia" and "Communism" meaning actually "The area encompassing the former Russian Empire and Soviet Union" and "the policies implemented throughout the existence of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union" is really obvious. Stop being autistic.

Anyway, it's true. The last big famines in both Russia and China were the final famines in those countries and socialist agricultural policies ended a millenia-long history of fairly regular, devastating famine. Russia had famines in the past that nearly wiped out a third of the country's population. When we look at Holodomor and we're like oh my god so bad a famine, we don't realise that was a fairly regular Russian experience anyway. Food security was one of the major CPSU achievements.

I'm not autistic, and being ableist isn't cool bro because there's a lot of autistic people on this forum. You literally said "Communism" not Communist governance be more clear in the future and remove that shit.
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Postby Dejanic » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:05 am

I think there's certainly legimate criticisms you could make of the Ukrainian and Chinese experiences (these famines were avoidable and mismanagement was rife), but to ignore the long histories of famines in both regions, as well as the resulting lack of famines once Socialist policies were enacted is a great example of Capitalist cognitive dissonance.
Post-Post Leftist | Anarcho-Blairite | Pol Pot Sympathiser

Jesus was a Socialist | Satan is a Capitalist

Dumb Ideologies wrote:Generic committed leftist with the opinion that anyone even slightly to the right of him is Hitler.

Master Shake wrote:multicultural loving imbecile.

Quintium wrote:Have you even been alive at all, toddler anarcho-collectivist?

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Postby Questers » Sun Dec 17, 2017 7:05 am

It's ordinary conversational practice to supply implication and draw inference.
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