Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Aillyria]

Kochs are:
-rich
-work by subterfuge
-probably responsible for murder
-incredibly powerful
-but no match against the combined mass and strength of the Common Folk^TM

all that is missing from a literal blood libel is the hook nose

Yeah this is a dumb point - I'm accusing the Kochs of political lobbying and shady connections because they do those things, not because they're some ethnicity I don't like. Are you denying that they do the things I'm accusing them of doing?

To deny the Kochs' underhandedness, is to be willfully ignorant of their evil nature.

[Northern Davincia]

And what does this have to do with the NSDAP? The Kochs might be assisting libertarian think-tanks but they're not throwing their weight behind the party or its candidates.

They're throwing their weight in the manner billionaires do - by giving millions and millions to the political machinations of "free market" advocates. The reason why this doesn't have anything to do with the NSDAP, funnily enough, is because your reply had nothing to do with the NSDAP. Almost like you were ignoring the point of the original comment or something. For someone who memes/supports Pinochet, you've got a real hankering for avoiding the weird connection fascists and libertarians have.

Refer to my Murray Rothbard quote above where he justifies racialism as some just-caused defense against minorities, and this article:
https://bennorton.com/the-libertarian-fascist-alliance/

Why would you mention the NSDAP if they are irrelevant to the discussion? The Kochs are closer to the Republican Party than anyone else.
There has never been, nor will there ever be, a true connection between fascism and libertarianism.

[Northern Davincia]

Rothbard is neither the dominant voice for the LP or libertarianism in general.

"Murray Newton Rothbard (/ˈmɜːri ˈrɒθbɑːrd/; March 2, 1926 – January 7, 1995) was a heterodox economist of the Austrian School,[1][2] a historian,[3][4] and a political theorist[5](pp11, 286, 380) whose writings and personal influence played a seminal role in the development of modern right-libertarianism.[6] Rothbard was the founder and leading theoretician of anarcho-capitalism, a staunch advocate of historical revisionism, and a central figure in the twentieth-century American libertarian movement."

I really wonder how "racial science is justified" came from this Libertarian intellectual/ideologue. Almost like there's some uncanny connections between those two things.

Yes, Rothbard is crucially important to the development of libertarian theory, but anarcho-capitalism is a fringe movement and he was never a deciding voice on any topic within the LP.

[Taihei Tengoku]

Kochs are:
-rich
-work by subterfuge
-probably responsible for murder
-incredibly powerful
-but no match against the combined mass and strength of the Common Folk^TM

all that is missing from a literal blood libel is the hook nose

Yeah this is a dumb point - I'm accusing the Kochs of political lobbying and shady connections because they do those things, not because they're some ethnicity I don't like. Are you denying that they do the things I'm accusing them of doing?

Not at all. The Kochs are very bigoted and racist, and the LP is their puppet. So racist that they have:
-used the LP to lobby for same-sex marriage decades before any other
-used the LP to lobby against the Drug War which hurts minorities
-used the LP to lobby against overcriminalization, singlehandedly introducing civil asset forfeiture as a controversy rather than an unknown swindle
-used their blood money to fund the Mercatus Center, an organization so racist it has a research fellow that literally wants to abolish national borders

When will their litany of evils end?

[Republican Corentia]

They're throwing their weight in the manner billionaires do - by giving millions and millions to the political machinations of "free market" advocates. The reason why this doesn't have anything to do with the NSDAP, funnily enough, is because your reply had nothing to do with the NSDAP. Almost like you were ignoring the point of the original comment or something. For someone who memes/supports Pinochet, you've got a real hankering for avoiding the weird connection fascists and libertarians have.

Refer to my Murray Rothbard quote above where he justifies racialism as some just-caused defense against minorities, and this article:
https://bennorton.com/the-libertarian-fascist-alliance/

Why would you mention the NSDAP if they are irrelevant to the discussion? The Kochs are closer to the Republican Party than anyone else.
There has never been, nor will there ever be, a true connection between fascism and libertarianism.

"Investigative journalist Jane Mayer caused quite a stir in January 2016 when she revealed that Fred Koch, the father of libertarian billionaires Charles and David Koch, helped build the third-largest oil refinery in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. His project was personally approved by Adolf Hitler, and the oil refinery fueled German planes, helping the Nazis carry out a campaign of genocide and destruction across Europe."

[Northern Davincia]

Why would you mention the NSDAP if they are irrelevant to the discussion? The Kochs are closer to the Republican Party than anyone else.
There has never been, nor will there ever be, a true connection between fascism and libertarianism.

"Investigative journalist Jane Mayer caused quite a stir in January 2016 when she revealed that Fred Koch, the father of libertarian billionaires Charles and David Koch, helped build the third-largest oil refinery in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. His project was personally approved by Adolf Hitler, and the oil refinery fueled German planes, helping the Nazis carry out a campaign of genocide and destruction across Europe."

Children do not inherit the sins of their father, if you must be informed. Building an oil refinery before WWII even broke out does not equate to supporting Nazi doctrine.

[The Multiversal Communist Collective]

Antisemitic comment reported to moderators.

the Koch boogeyman is great because it's literally a leftist Eternal Jew smear
Kochs are:
-rich
-work by subterfuge
-probably responsible for murder
-incredibly powerful
-but no match against the combined mass and strength of the Common Folk^TM

all that is missing from a literal blood libel is the hook nose

[Republican Corentia]

Yeah this is a dumb point - I'm accusing the Kochs of political lobbying and shady connections because they do those things, not because they're some ethnicity I don't like. Are you denying that they do the things I'm accusing them of doing?

Not at all. The Kochs are very bigoted and racist, and the LP is their puppet. So racist that they have:
-used the LP to lobby for same-sex marriage decades before any other
-used the LP to lobby against the Drug War which hurts minorities
-used the LP to lobby against overcriminalization, singlehandedly introducing civil asset forfeiture as a controversy rather than an unknown swindle
-used their blood money to fund the Mercatus Center, an organization so racist it has a research fellow that literally wants to abolish national borders

When will their litany of evils end?

Quote me where I directly said the Kochs were racist. I don't think they were obviously - but clearly their father didn't care much about who was racist if his business dealings are anything to show for it. By literally fueling the German Wehrmacht and SS.

[Northern Davincia]

Not at all. The Kochs are very bigoted and racist, and the LP is their puppet. So racist that they have:
-used the LP to lobby for same-sex marriage decades before any other
-used the LP to lobby against the Drug War which hurts minorities
-used the LP to lobby against overcriminalization, singlehandedly introducing civil asset forfeiture as a controversy rather than an unknown swindle
-used their blood money to fund the Mercatus Center, an organization so racist it has a research fellow that literally wants to abolish national borders

When will their litany of evils end?

Quote me where I directly said the Kochs were racist. I don't think they were obviously - but clearly their father didn't care much about who was racist if his business dealings are anything to show for it. By literally fueling the German Wehrmacht and SS.

What their father did has no bearing on their stances now.

[Republican Corentia]

"Investigative journalist Jane Mayer caused quite a stir in January 2016 when she revealed that Fred Koch, the father of libertarian billionaires Charles and David Koch, helped build the third-largest oil refinery in Nazi Germany in the 1930s. His project was personally approved by Adolf Hitler, and the oil refinery fueled German planes, helping the Nazis carry out a campaign of genocide and destruction across Europe."

Children do not inherit the sins of their father, if you must be informed. Building an oil refinery before WWII even broke out does not equate to supporting Nazi doctrine.

?

The Koch brothers carried on the Koch family's ideological legacy, that's quite clear. It should also be said I'm not demonizing just 2 people and that this is very simply just an analysis of the connections between fascism and libertarianism. That's a juvenile look at my argument and I believe you're doing it to once again hide the bigger connotations of literal collaboration between fascists and libertarians. Since we're on that, do you actually support Pinochet?

[Taihei Tengoku]

Not at all. The Kochs are very bigoted and racist, and the LP is their puppet. So racist that they have:
-used the LP to lobby for same-sex marriage decades before any other
-used the LP to lobby against the Drug War which hurts minorities
-used the LP to lobby against overcriminalization, singlehandedly introducing civil asset forfeiture as a controversy rather than an unknown swindle
-used their blood money to fund the Mercatus Center, an organization so racist it has a research fellow that literally wants to abolish national borders

When will their litany of evils end?

Quote me where I directly said the Kochs were racist. I don't think they were obviously - but clearly their father didn't care much about who was racist if his business dealings are anything to show for it. By literally fueling the German Wehrmacht and SS.

And the American bombers and fighters and tanks which strafed, bombed, shot and shelled them. Perhaps the Soviets, which invaded the other half of Poland and exiled the free nations of the Baltic to Siberia, would have bravely refused all cooperation with the fascist.

Antisemitic comment reported to moderators.

the Koch boogeyman is great because it's literally a leftist Eternal Jew smear
Kochs are:
-rich
-work by subterfuge
-probably responsible for murder
-incredibly powerful
-but no match against the combined mass and strength of the Common Folk^TM

all that is missing from a literal blood libel is the hook nose

I can read the Moderation forum too--no need to post it twice.

[Republican Corentia]

Quote me where I directly said the Kochs were racist. I don't think they were obviously - but clearly their father didn't care much about who was racist if his business dealings are anything to show for it. By literally fueling the German Wehrmacht and SS.

And the American bombers and fighters and tanks which strafed, bombed, shot and shelled them. Perhaps the Soviets, which invaded the other half of Poland and exiled the free nations of the Baltic to Siberia, would have bravely refused all cooperation with the fascist.

The Soviet Union deported *nations* to Siberia? Please stop being so ridiculously entrenched in your anticommunist fantasies. Whether or not it was for profit - or because Fred's associate was a nazi collaborator, it still led to the same outcome of supporting fascist wars. Reminder that the entire goal of the invasions in Eastern Europe was to exterminate the slavic people for lebensraum. German citizens would follow after the Wehrmacht's campaigns and start to live in these areas, too, allowing for active and passive methods of ethnic cleansing to occur. You know what helped that? All the oil that you needed to transport the troops and german civilians there. Ironic how you (wrongly) accuse the USSR of this to deflect from Nazi Germany's crimes.

[Northern Davincia]

Children do not inherit the sins of their father, if you must be informed. Building an oil refinery before WWII even broke out does not equate to supporting Nazi doctrine.

?

The Koch brothers carried on the Koch family's ideological legacy, that's quite clear. It should also be said I'm not demonizing just 2 people and that this is very simply just an analysis of the connections between fascism and libertarianism. That's a juvenile look at my argument and I believe you're doing it to once again hide the bigger connotations of literal collaboration between fascists and libertarians. Since we're on that, do you actually support Pinochet?

The Kochs are not responsible for whatever their father did. Even if their father was a hardcore Nazi, that would prove nothing about a supposed relationship between opposite ideologies. The construction of an oil refinery has nothing to do with political beliefs, it only shows that Fred Koch was a savvy businessman. And no, I do not actually support Pinochet.

On a side note, the elder Koch also provided the same services to the Soviet Union, so you might as well accuse him of being a closeted commie.

[Taihei Tengoku]

And the American bombers and fighters and tanks which strafed, bombed, shot and shelled them. Perhaps the Soviets, which invaded the other half of Poland and exiled the free nations of the Baltic to Siberia, would have bravely refused all cooperation with the fascist.

The Soviet Union deported *nations* to Siberia? Please stop being so ridiculously entrenched in your anticommunist fantasies.

You're right, I'm very sorry. I hope the reactionary tribes will commit similar penitence.

[Dagashi Shoujo]

?

The Koch brothers carried on the Koch family's ideological legacy, that's quite clear. It should also be said I'm not demonizing just 2 people and that this is very simply just an analysis of the connections between fascism and libertarianism. That's a juvenile look at my argument and I believe you're doing it to once again hide the bigger connotations of literal collaboration between fascists and libertarians. Since we're on that, do you actually support Pinochet?

The Kochs are not responsible for whatever their father did. Even if their father was a hardcore Nazi, that would prove nothing about a supposed relationship between opposite ideologies. The construction of an oil refinery has nothing to do with political beliefs, it only shows that Fred Koch was a savvy businessman. And no, I do not actually support Pinochet.

On a side note, the elder Koch also provided the same services to the Soviet Union, so you might as well accuse him of being a closeted commie.

Ford and other American businessmen also invested in the USSR.

Bourgeois confirmed for undercover Commies?

[Republican Corentia]

?

The Koch brothers carried on the Koch family's ideological legacy, that's quite clear. It should also be said I'm not demonizing just 2 people and that this is very simply just an analysis of the connections between fascism and libertarianism. That's a juvenile look at my argument and I believe you're doing it to once again hide the bigger connotations of literal collaboration between fascists and libertarians. Since we're on that, do you actually support Pinochet?

The Kochs are not responsible for whatever their father did. Even if their father was a hardcore Nazi, that would prove nothing about a supposed relationship between opposite ideologies. The construction of an oil refinery has nothing to do with political beliefs, it only shows that Fred Koch was a savvy businessman. And no, I do not actually support Pinochet.

On a side note, the elder Koch also provided the same services to the Soviet Union, so you might as well accuse him of being a closeted commie.

Fred Koch was a rabid anti-communist and after WWII supported the very same section of political thought which rejected the Civil Rights Act. Again this isn't about responsibility that the Koch Brothers have in what their father did - they're clearly already guilty of corruption in the modern day - it's about libertarianism in practice. I suggest you read that other article I linked you, it talks about a lot more than just the Kochs.

[El Hamidah]

The linking of chaos to anarchism is true propaganda, honestly. It is basically because those that support the status-quo need to build a boogyman, and therefore claim themselves to be the "order" to the anarchist's "chaos".

Or, bear with me because this is going to sound crazy, maybe the fact you guys chose to put "anarchy" in the name gives people a certain first impression of your ideology?

Libertarian Socialism is a better description.

[The Grene Knyght]

Or, bear with me because this is going to sound crazy, maybe the fact you guys chose to put "anarchy" in the name gives people a certain first impression of your ideology?

Libertarian Socialism is a better description.

Then what do you call libertarian socialism?

[Northern Davincia]

The Kochs are not responsible for whatever their father did. Even if their father was a hardcore Nazi, that would prove nothing about a supposed relationship between opposite ideologies. The construction of an oil refinery has nothing to do with political beliefs, it only shows that Fred Koch was a savvy businessman. And no, I do not actually support Pinochet.

On a side note, the elder Koch also provided the same services to the Soviet Union, so you might as well accuse him of being a closeted commie.

Ford and other American businessmen also invested in the USSR.

Bourgeois confirmed for undercover Commies?

It's not possible!

The Kochs are not responsible for whatever their father did. Even if their father was a hardcore Nazi, that would prove nothing about a supposed relationship between opposite ideologies. The construction of an oil refinery has nothing to do with political beliefs, it only shows that Fred Koch was a savvy businessman. And no, I do not actually support Pinochet.

On a side note, the elder Koch also provided the same services to the Soviet Union, so you might as well accuse him of being a closeted commie.

Fred Koch was a rabid anti-communist and after WWII supported the very same section of political thought which rejected the Civil Rights Act. Again this isn't about responsibility that the Koch Brothers have in what their father did - they're clearly already guilty of corruption in the modern day - it's about libertarianism in practice. I suggest you read that other article I linked you, it talks about a lot more than just the Kochs.

Did Fred Koch himself oppose the Civil Rights Act, or are you making more baseless associations? That article you provided has no understanding of what fascism is in the slightest, or libertarianism.

[Republican Corentia]

Ford and other American businessmen also invested in the USSR.

Bourgeois confirmed for undercover Commies?

It's not possible!

Fred Koch was a rabid anti-communist and after WWII supported the very same section of political thought which rejected the Civil Rights Act. Again this isn't about responsibility that the Koch Brothers have in what their father did - they're clearly already guilty of corruption in the modern day - it's about libertarianism in practice. I suggest you read that other article I linked you, it talks about a lot more than just the Kochs.

Did Fred Koch himself oppose the Civil Rights Act, or are you making more baseless associations? That article you provided has no understanding of what fascism is in the slightest, or libertarianism.

https://www.democracynow.org/2014/7/8/k ... ghts_roots

The matter isn't "did he oppose the civil rights act?" because I said nothing of the sort. He clearly supported libertarianism during that era via the John Birch Society and other organizations. Do you know which libertarian was running as GOP during that time, on a platform that opposed the civil rights act? Barry Goldwater. For fuck's sake it's like you don't know anything about your own movement.

[Dagashi Shoujo]

Anarchy is not the same as "chaos" or "destruction".

The definition of anarchy is "a state of disorder due to absence or nonrecognition of authority." so it kind of is.

That was a conflation made by non-anarchists. Any person who reads an inch further into it sees it refers to:
1. a philosophy, and/or
2. a political stance.

That would fail to explain why the term "anarchism" existed before the existence of anarchism and was used pejoratively by various factions, until later being appropriated by Proudhon.

[West Leas Oros]

Libertarian Socialism is a better description.

Then what do you call libertarian socialism?

Anarchy calls for a stateless society, libertarian socialism however, does not. Further more, “Socialism, like capitalism is an economic system, and anarchy seeks to abolish economics altogether.” Source: https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/bobby-whittenberg-james-anarchy-breaking-up-with-socialism

[Republican Corentia]

The Soviet Union deported *nations* to Siberia? Please stop being so ridiculously entrenched in your anticommunist fantasies.

You're right, I'm very sorry. I hope the reactionary tribes will commit similar penitence.

Another non-answer from the always rashunal and intellectual right wing libertarians. I suppose we're going to forget the massive increase in the standard of living everywhere in the USSR, the free education and healthcare, workplace and political democracy, industrialization and general modernity that the Soviet state brought to millions more in the world. Or the fact that many of the deaths during these deportations were due to the war and not at all deliberate or purposefully brutal despite the politically authoritarian motivations behind them to establish a stable government. If you'd like better resources than just wikipedia, here's one from a harvard professor on the whole subject: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sequence=2

[West Leas Oros]

You're right, I'm very sorry. I hope the reactionary tribes will commit similar penitence.

Another non-answer from the always rashunal and intellectual right wing libertarians. I suppose we're going to

forget the massive increase in the standard of living everywhere in the USSR, the free education and healthcare, workplace and political democracy, industrialization and general modernity that the Soviet state brought to millions more in the world.

Or the fact that many of the deaths during these deportations were due to the war and not at all deliberate or purposefully brutal despite the politically authoritarian motivations behind them to establish a stable government. If you'd like better resources than just wikipedia, here's one from a harvard professor on the whole subject: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sequence=2

what Soviet Union are you talking about? That sounds much better than the Soviet Union I’m thinking of!

[Taihei Tengoku]

You're right, I'm very sorry. I hope the reactionary tribes will commit similar penitence.

Another non-answer from the always rashunal and intellectual right wing libertarians. I suppose we're going to forget the massive increase in the standard of living everywhere in the USSR, the free education and healthcare, workplace and political democracy, industrialization and general modernity that the Soviet state brought to millions more in the world. Or the fact that many of the deaths during these deportations were due to the war and not at all deliberate or purposefully brutal despite the politically authoritarian motivations behind them to establish a stable government. If you'd like better resources than just wikipedia, here's one from a harvard professor on the whole subject: https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/hand ... sequence=2

I am already convinced. I will direct you to other right-wing fascists and wreckers who need to read that paper: