Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Genuine question: why is communism still an ideology a select few still think works and will work?

At least to me, because, although communism from above dominated the 20ᵗʰ century, communism from below has not yet been attempted.

[The Grene Knyght]

All countries are capitalist.......except maybe Cuba and China.

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

"Countless" others? There's not that many countries in the world. You missed maybe one or two countries that could be considered non-capitalist (I wouldn't, but some would). Saying "countless" seems like hyperbole to me.

[Liriena]

All countries are capitalist.......except maybe Cuba and China.

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

[Aillyria]

All countries are capitalist.......except maybe Cuba and China.

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

Eh.....NK (no), Venezuela and the rest (maybe).

[Liriena]

>implying institutionalised racism exists

It does, though. We can debate the extent and gravity of it, but it does exist.

[Liriena]

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

As for Mozambique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mozambique#Extensive_economic_reform

Economic reform has been extensive. Over 1,200 state-owned enterprises (mostly small) have been privatized. Preparations for privatization and/or sector liberalization are underway for the remaining parastatals, including telecommunications, electricity, water service, airports, ports, and the railroads. The government frequently selects a strategic foreign investor when privatizing a parastatal. Additionally, customs duties have been reduced, and customs management has been streamlined and reformed. The government introduced a highly successful value-added tax in 1999 as part of its efforts to increase domestic revenues. Plans for 2001-02 include Commercial Code reform; comprehensive judicial reform; financial sector strengthening; continued civil service reform; improved government budget, audit, and inspection capability; and introduction of the private management of water systems in major cities. The process of liberalization in Mozambique was an initiative from the World Bank. In the Mid 1990s, World Bank made it necessary for the nation to liberalize their cashew sector. The lifting of protectionist measures for the cashew industry in Mozambique was an attempt to increase the incomes of cashew farmers and reduce poverty in the country. This policy of liberalization has been one of the most contentious policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_industry_of_Mozambique#Structure_of_the_mineral_industry

Most of Mozambique’s mining and mineral processing operations are privately owned, including the cement plants, the Mozal aluminium smelter, and the Temane gas processing plant.[1] Artisanal miners produce gold and aquamarine, tourmaline, and other gemstones.[1] Carbomoc E.E., which was the country’s only coal producer, is state-owned.[1]

[Northern Davincia]

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ivonaiacob ... b5f77841dd
If you're basing socialism on public sector employment, France is magically socialist.

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

As for Mozambique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mozambique#Extensive_economic_reform

Economic reform has been extensive. Over 1,200 state-owned enterprises (mostly small) have been privatized. Preparations for privatization and/or sector liberalization are underway for the remaining parastatals, including telecommunications, electricity, water service, airports, ports, and the railroads. The government frequently selects a strategic foreign investor when privatizing a parastatal. Additionally, customs duties have been reduced, and customs management has been streamlined and reformed. The government introduced a highly successful value-added tax in 1999 as part of its efforts to increase domestic revenues. Plans for 2001-02 include Commercial Code reform; comprehensive judicial reform; financial sector strengthening; continued civil service reform; improved government budget, audit, and inspection capability; and introduction of the private management of water systems in major cities. The process of liberalization in Mozambique was an initiative from the World Bank. In the Mid 1990s, World Bank made it necessary for the nation to liberalize their cashew sector. The lifting of protectionist measures for the cashew industry in Mozambique was an attempt to increase the incomes of cashew farmers and reduce poverty in the country. This policy of liberalization has been one of the most contentious policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_industry_of_Mozambique#Structure_of_the_mineral_industry

Most of Mozambique’s mining and mineral processing operations are privately owned, including the cement plants, the Mozal aluminium smelter, and the Temane gas processing plant.[1] Artisanal miners produce gold and aquamarine, tourmaline, and other gemstones.[1] Carbomoc E.E., which was the country’s only coal producer, is state-owned.[1]

Preparations for economic liberalization don't mean much until those reforms actually take place fully.

Incorrect. North Korea, Venezuela, Congo, Zimbabwe, Mozambique, Laos, and countless other nations are socialist.

Eh.....NK (no), Venezuela and the rest (maybe).

North Korea, very much yes.

[Aillyria]

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ivonaiacob ... b5f77841dd
If you're basing socialism on public sector employment, France is magically socialist.

As for Mozambique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mozambique#Extensive_economic_reform

Economic reform has been extensive. Over 1,200 state-owned enterprises (mostly small) have been privatized. Preparations for privatization and/or sector liberalization are underway for the remaining parastatals, including telecommunications, electricity, water service, airports, ports, and the railroads. The government frequently selects a strategic foreign investor when privatizing a parastatal. Additionally, customs duties have been reduced, and customs management has been streamlined and reformed. The government introduced a highly successful value-added tax in 1999 as part of its efforts to increase domestic revenues. Plans for 2001-02 include Commercial Code reform; comprehensive judicial reform; financial sector strengthening; continued civil service reform; improved government budget, audit, and inspection capability; and introduction of the private management of water systems in major cities. The process of liberalization in Mozambique was an initiative from the World Bank. In the Mid 1990s, World Bank made it necessary for the nation to liberalize their cashew sector. The lifting of protectionist measures for the cashew industry in Mozambique was an attempt to increase the incomes of cashew farmers and reduce poverty in the country. This policy of liberalization has been one of the most contentious policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_industry_of_Mozambique#Structure_of_the_mineral_industry

Most of Mozambique’s mining and mineral processing operations are privately owned, including the cement plants, the Mozal aluminium smelter, and the Temane gas processing plant.[1] Artisanal miners produce gold and aquamarine, tourmaline, and other gemstones.[1] Carbomoc E.E., which was the country’s only coal producer, is state-owned.[1]

Preparations for economic liberalization don't mean much until those reforms actually take place fully.

Eh.....NK (no), Venezuela and the rest (maybe).

North Korea, very much yes.

North Korea isn't anywhere close to being socialist.....they're capitalist.

[Aellex]

>implying institutionalised racism exists

It does, though. We can debate the extent and gravity of it, but it does exist.

No, it really doesn't.

[Liriena]

It does, though. We can debate the extent and gravity of it, but it does exist.

No, it really doesn't.

Agree to disagree.

[Genivaria]

>implying institutionalised racism exists

It does, though. We can debate the extent and gravity of it, but it does exist.

Relevant.

African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/public ... e-prisons/

[Northern Davincia]

North Korea isn't anywhere close to being socialist.....they're capitalist.

Not in the slightest.

[Aillyria]

No, it really doesn't.

Agree to disagree.

The bourgeoisie don't care about race, profit has no color. Minorities are guinea pigs for policies they will eventually enact everywhere.

[Genivaria]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ivonaiacob ... b5f77841dd
If you're basing socialism on public sector employment, France is magically socialist.

Preparations for economic liberalization don't mean much until those reforms actually take place fully.

North Korea, very much yes.

North Korea isn't anywhere close to being socialist.....they're capitalist.

...you do know that private business is illegal in NK right?

[The East Marches II]

It does, though. We can debate the extent and gravity of it, but it does exist.

Relevant.

African Americans are incarcerated in state prisons at a rate that is 5.1 times the imprisonment of whites. In five states (Iowa, Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, and Wisconsin), the disparity is more than 10 to 1.

In twelve states, more than half of the prison population is black: Alabama, Delaware, Georgia, Illinois, Louisiana, Maryland, Michigan, Mississippi, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, and Virginia. Maryland, whose prison population is 72% African American, tops the nation.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/public ... e-prisons/

Is that more or less than their proportion of committed crimes?

[Trotskylvania]

Genuine question: why is communism still an ideology a select few still think works and will work?

You've got the reality of the matter turned on its head.

As Marx put it, “Communism is for us not a state of affairs which is to be established, an ideal to which reality [will] have to adjust itself. We call communism the real movement which abolishes the present state of things. The conditions of this movement result from the premises now in existence.”

In other words, communism arises from the misanthropic nature of bourgeois society. Workers are compelled to struggle against capital because it reduces them to expendable commodified labor. Their interest as a class is directly opposed to the interests of capital.

Communism is not an ideology that can be killed any more than the history of feudal reaction could destroy the breakthrough of bourgeois society. Material interest compels struggle, not the march of ideas.

[Genivaria]

Relevant.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/public ... e-prisons/

Is that more or less than their proportion of committed crimes?

That data isn't on the site but I don't know why there'd be a disparity in actual commiting of crimes.

[Liriena]

Venezuela has a socialist party in government, but it's not a socialist nation. The private sector is still overwhelming dominant in the Venezuelan economy.

http://cepr.net/blogs/the-americas-blog ... s-suggests

So you're off to a bad start.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/ivonaiacob ... b5f77841dd
If you're basing socialism on public sector employment, France is magically socialist.

Your source doesn't really dispute my point, though. Yes, the Chavez government nationalized some industries and redistributed land, but the private sector still dominates much of the country's economic activity. And the country as a whole is still broadly operating in the terms of capitalism.

The op-ed in question does a fairly clumsy job of explaining why Venezuela is a socialist country. It seems its understanding of what makes a society socialist goes as far as "has a socialist party in government" and "some industries are nationalized", which is extremely shallow at best.

As for Mozambique: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mozambique#Extensive_economic_reform

Economic reform has been extensive. Over 1,200 state-owned enterprises (mostly small) have been privatized. Preparations for privatization and/or sector liberalization are underway for the remaining parastatals, including telecommunications, electricity, water service, airports, ports, and the railroads. The government frequently selects a strategic foreign investor when privatizing a parastatal. Additionally, customs duties have been reduced, and customs management has been streamlined and reformed. The government introduced a highly successful value-added tax in 1999 as part of its efforts to increase domestic revenues. Plans for 2001-02 include Commercial Code reform; comprehensive judicial reform; financial sector strengthening; continued civil service reform; improved government budget, audit, and inspection capability; and introduction of the private management of water systems in major cities. The process of liberalization in Mozambique was an initiative from the World Bank. In the Mid 1990s, World Bank made it necessary for the nation to liberalize their cashew sector. The lifting of protectionist measures for the cashew industry in Mozambique was an attempt to increase the incomes of cashew farmers and reduce poverty in the country. This policy of liberalization has been one of the most contentious policies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mineral_industry_of_Mozambique#Structure_of_the_mineral_industry

Most of Mozambique’s mining and mineral processing operations are privately owned, including the cement plants, the Mozal aluminium smelter, and the Temane gas processing plant.[1] Artisanal miners produce gold and aquamarine, tourmaline, and other gemstones.[1] Carbomoc E.E., which was the country’s only coal producer, is state-owned.[1]

Preparations for economic liberalization don't mean much until those reforms actually take place fully.

The fact that the economies are largely private makes it really hard to take your claim that they are socialist countries seriously, no matter what random arbitrary standards you throw at the wall.

[Liriena]

Agree to disagree.

The bourgeoisie don't care about race, profit has no color. Minorities are guinea pigs for policies they will eventually enact everywhere.

Not a bad take.

[The Grene Knyght]

Agree to disagree.

The bourgeoisie don't care about race, profit has no color. Minorities are guinea pigs for policies they will eventually enact everywhere.

That's not necessarily true. Even if you choose to view the boujees as one homogeneous mass (a problematic outlook in its own right), reinforcing racism can still be advantageous to them and to their profit.

[The East Marches II]

Is that more or less than their proportion of committed crimes?

That data isn't on the site but I don't know why there'd be a disparity in actual commiting of crimes.

There is in my state tbh, certain groups are over represented in crime stats, does that mesh up to the criminal population? That is to say does the sentencing disparity count in that realm in addition to time sentenced to. If that makes sense.

[Genivaria]

The bourgeoisie don't care about race, profit has no color. Minorities are guinea pigs for policies they will eventually enact everywhere.

That's not necessarily true. Even if you choose to view the boujees as one homogeneous mass (a problematic outlook in its own right), reinforcing racism can still be advantageous to them and to their profit.

There's that and I find it hard to believe that racism over time hasn't actually taken hold.

[Trotskylvania]

North Korea isn't anywhere close to being socialist.....they're capitalist.

...you do know that private business is illegal in NK right?

Converting private business into state enterprises doesn't alter the economic relations. In North Korea, the state bureaucracy and the enterprise managers constitute an ersatz bourgeoisie. They may not own individual legal title to property, but their position within the state apparatus exists only through the exploitation of labor. North Korea is no more socialist than a company town is.

[Liriena]

Relevant.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/public ... e-prisons/

Is that more or less than their proportion of committed crimes?

Well, there's an issue of disproportionate convictions and sentences.

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/crime/oregon-study-finds-racial-disparities-in-drug-convictions/

PORTLAND — A study conducted by the Oregon Criminal Justice Commission has found that African-Americans in the state were convicted of felony drug possession at more than double the rate of whites in 2015.

That conviction disparity held true in methamphetamine, heroin and cocaine cases statewide, reported The Oregonian/OregonLive.

State Criminal Justice Commission Director Mike Schmidt said the results are striking given federal public-health survey data, which shows that illicit drug use is roughly the same across Americans of different races and ethnicities.

https://www.aclu.org/sites/default/files/assets/141027_iachr_racial_disparities_aclu_submission_0.pdf

There are significant racial disparities in sentencing decisions in the United States.1

Sentences imposed on Black males in the federal system are nearly 20 percent longer than those
imposed on white males convicted of similar crimes.2
Black and Latino offenders sentenced in
state and federal courts face significantly greater odds of incarceration than similarly situated
white offenders and receive longer sentences than their white counterparts in some jurisdictions.3

Black male federal defendants receive longer sentences than whites arrested for the same
offenses and with comparable criminal histories.4
Research has also shown that race plays a
significant role in the determination of which homicide cases result in death sentences.5

[Genivaria]

...you do know that private business is illegal in NK right?

Converting private business into state enterprises doesn't alter the economic relations. In North Korea, the state bureaucracy and the enterprise managers constitute an ersatz bourgeoisie. They may not own individual legal title to property, but their position within the state apparatus exists only through the exploitation of labor. North Korea is no more socialist than a company town is.

While I think that is an interesting argument my point was that NK is by definition not capitalist.
You can call it 'state capitalist' if you want like some call the Soviet Union but free enterprise is simply not a thing.