Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[United Muscovite Nations]

So, yes. You do acknowledge, right there, that it can be beneficial to marginalize an opposition group.

It appears you and I are using the term marginalization differently. Academically, marginalization is roughly equivalent to Gramsci's application of the term, the subaltern.

My point is, if you marginalize people, you dehumanize them and contend that they are hopeless.

Ah. I just meant oppressing them.

[War Gears]

>implying I'm an objectivist

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

See, the notion that logic is below emotion is inherently dangerous.

Hume, the most dangerous man in history.

We ought to be striving for a perfectly rational society.

Plato tried that; his solution was the stuff that nightmares were made of. The problem is that you assume your ideals are the rational ones, where everyone here will probably tell you the same about theirs and use the same justification.

[Genivaria]

You still haven't justified their marginalization or even demonstrated that such marginalization would in anyway be beneficial to society.

Should fascists be marginalized?

Define 'marginalize'.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That's why I'm asking you for the other reasons.

I grew up in a NYC secular Jewish family which, while not left wing, was progressive. Conservative ideas, while not unheard of, are extremely rare among NYC secular Jews. My late Uncle Ralph, to whom I was quite close, was an early Trotskyist organizer in NYC. There was also a chapter of a New Left student organization at my junior high school (now, middle school). I became its vice-president.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Should fascists be marginalized?

Define 'marginalize'.

Repressed or forcibly made politically irrelevant.

[Genivaria]

Define 'marginalize'.

Repressed or forcibly made politically irrelevant.

I support taking actions to make them politically irrelevant yes, perhaps not with the use of force though.
But political repression? No.

[Aillyria]

I'd say socialism is identical with the left, and communism being part of that.

The problem with the term socialism, in the U.S. (and you said you live in the South), is that it has been distorted by Bernie Sanders falsely claiming to be a socialist while, at the same time, adamantly denying he is a communist (which he isn't). If socialism and communism are used interchangeably (as Marx and Engels did for the most part), I would include socialism by default.

While I agree with your assessment of Sanders (Lord, I hate that guy, fucking bourgeois sabotuer, if you ask me), why should we conflate socialism and communism as terms? That's like me saying I'm a communist interchangeably with socialism, even though I'm in a different socialist current.

[Northern Davincia]

>implying I'm an objectivist

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.

See, the notion that logic is below emotion is inherently dangerous.

Hume, the most dangerous man in history.

We ought to be striving for a perfectly rational society.

Plato tried that; his solution was the stuff that nightmares were made of. The problem is that you assume your ideals are the rational ones, where everyone here will probably tell you the same about theirs and use the same justification.

The rationality of an idea can usually be determined by its outcome. also no bully Plato pls

That's why I'm asking you for the other reasons.

I grew up in a NYC secular Jewish family which, while not left wing, was progressive. Conservative ideas, while not unheard of, are extremely rare among NYC secular Jews. My late Uncle Ralph, to whom I was quite close, was an early Trotskyist organizer in NYC. There was also a chapter of a New Left student organization at my junior high school (now, middle school). I became its vice-president.

Now, during your upbringing, what made communism seem logical to you?

[Democratic Communist Federation]

While I agree with your assessment of Sanders (Lord, I hate that guy, fucking bourgeois sabotuer, if you ask me), why should we conflate socialism and communism as terms? That's like me saying I'm a communist interchangeably with socialism, even though I'm in a different socialist current.

If you want to rescue the term socialism, given the popularity of Bernie Sanders, best of luck. Personally, whenever I use the word “socialism,” I include “communism” in the same conversation. To me, the term “socialism,” in the U.S., has been ruined for at least a generation.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

The rationality of an idea can usually be determined by its outcome. also no bully Plato pls

That is a very Weberian statement. I bet old Max would agree with you.

Now, during your upbringing, what made communism seem logical to you?

I never thought of it in quite that way. To me, communism was simply the only alternative. I was never exposed to any other coherent philosophy. Of course, I was only 12 years old at the time.

[War Gears]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, and looks like a duck, it's a duck.


Hume, the most dangerous man in history.


Plato tried that; his solution was the stuff that nightmares were made of. The problem is that you assume your ideals are the rational ones, where everyone here will probably tell you the same about theirs and use the same justification.

The rationality of an idea can usually be determined by its outcome. also no bully Plato pls

That depends on the outcome that one wants.

Plato basically wanted a communal state where wives and children were held in common. WTF wouldn't you want me to bully him?

[Aillyria]

While I agree with your assessment of Sanders (Lord, I hate that guy, fucking bourgeois sabotuer, if you ask me), why should we conflate socialism and communism as terms? That's like me saying I'm a communist interchangeably with socialism, even though I'm in a different socialist current.

If you want to rescue the term socialism, given the popularity of Bernie Sanders, best of luck. Personally, whenever I use the word “socialism,” I include “communism” in the same conversation. To me, the term “socialism,” in the U.S., has been ruined for at least a generation.

That argument doesn't make sense though, communism as a term is just as much ruined here as socialism is. If that's you're reason you should make up another term for socialism. I don't really care about whether a term is ruined or not, I am a socialist and won't shy away from proclaiming ir.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

That argument doesn't make sense though, communism as a term is just as much ruined here as socialism is. If that's you're reason you should make up another term for socialism. I don't really care about whether a term is ruined or not, I am a socialist and won't shy away from proclaiming ir.

That is true. The reputation of communism, in the West, was ruined during the Cold War. However, more than a generation has passed since the Soviet Union, along with the Warsaw Pact, folded. For years, there were articles in New Left Review about what communists should do about the negative connotations attached to the term “communism.”

Sufficient time has, IMO, passed. New communist currents, including my own (Luxemburgism), are slowly surfacing. Even Trotskyism, which was viciously attacked by Stalin, has started to come into its own (though I am not particularly a fan).

For a long time, most Western communists, especially anti-Stalinists, wouldn't dare call themselves communists. They instead referred to themselves as “socialists.” Now, the tables have turned.

Ultimately, however, deciding on a term is really a promotional issue. Richard D. Wolff, a communist economist of considerable note, has adopted the plain vanilla term, workers’ self–directed cooperative enterprises. IMO, Wolff's communism sometimes strays in the direction of social democracy (but not always). Despite that, he has provided a template of one possible solution. Invent a new term.

[Alsheb]

In Antifa, many are quite ready for it.

I hate to break this to you, but Antifa really isn't that strong, and is generally poorly armed. It's not like some old Maoist group that stockpiles guns.

One of antifa's biggest flaws right there.

[Alsheb]

If you want to rescue the term socialism, given the popularity of Bernie Sanders, best of luck. Personally, whenever I use the word “socialism,” I include “communism” in the same conversation. To me, the term “socialism,” in the U.S., has been ruined for at least a generation.

That argument doesn't make sense though, communism as a term is just as much ruined here as socialism is. If that's you're reason you should make up another term for socialism. I don't really care about whether a term is ruined or not, I am a socialist and won't shy away from proclaiming ir.

We shouldn't care much about what the class enemy has done to the name we use to describe ourselves. If anything, we should educate people about why being a socialist or communist is a badge of honour.

[Ostroeuropa]

http://archive.fo/B9zMl

Full circle.

Civility is a white norm, not a universal one, so requiring it is racism.

Incidentally this erosion of universities due to progressives happened first with feminism up and deciding to infect loads of courses, but it appears race will be doing that now too.

[Dumb Ideologies]

http://archive.fo/B9zMl

Full circle.

Civility is a white norm, not a universal one, so requiring it is racism.

Incidentally this erosion of universities due to progressives happened first with feminism up and deciding to infect loads of courses, but it appears race will be doing that now too.

I'm sorry Ostro, you've been allocated a very high number of privilege points. You're only allowed to speak for three seconds during debates, and for every second you exceed this you must pay reparations.

[Aellex]

One of antifa's biggest flaws right there.

Not surprising given they're just LARPers. Had they actually, things would probably end up worse for them anyway as they lack the guts, mentality and training for actual violent actions against anyone more dangerous than peaceful protesters.

[Alsheb]

One of antifa's biggest flaws right there.

Not surprising given they're just LARPers. Had they actually, things would probably end up worse for them anyway as they lack the guts, mentality and training for actual violent actions against anyone more dangerous than peaceful protesters.

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

[Aellex]

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

Tbh, I don't think that edgy teens who're into a cartoon frog and memes are "the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth", if anything this description would suit better the actual genocidal maniacs and religious totalitarians the Syrian Loyalist Army and Rojava are fighting.
But hey, that's just my opinion.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Not surprising given they're just LARPers. Had they actually, things would probably end up worse for them anyway as they lack the guts, mentality and training for actual violent actions against anyone more dangerous than peaceful protesters.

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

Fucking lol, I get you're European and all but this is just horrifically uninformed.

[Dumb Ideologies]

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

Tbh, I don't think that edgy teens who're into a cartoon frog and memes are "the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth", if anything this description would suit better the actual genocidal maniacs and religious totalitarians the Syrian Loyalist Army and Rojava are fighting.
But hey, that's just my opinion.

Post hit bullseye hard enough male bovines within thousand mile radius went blind.

[Alsheb]

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

Tbh, I don't think that edgy teens who're into a cartoon frog and memes are "the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth", if anything this description would suit better the actual genocidal maniacs and religious totalitarians the Syrian Loyalist Army and Rojava are fighting.
But hey, that's just my opinion.

Fascism isn't limited to "edgy teens with frog memes". We have growing fascist parties all over Europe and America alike. In case you missed it, a fascist almost won the presidency of your own country.

And secondly: yes, Daesh are fascists too. And they're dangerous. Fascists come in all religious kinds.Your point being?

[Alsheb]

That's definitely one of the most important things of the western left to work on. Considering that they are faced with the most violent and vile creatures to walk this earth, the left definitely could use some more guts and willingness to fight.

Fucking lol, I get you're European and all but this is just horrifically uninformed.

What does me being European have to do with anything? We have fascist movements all over the place, and we have Antifa movements as well.

The main difference being that so far, in Europe antifascism isn't demonised by the mainstream as much as it is the US.

[Aellex]

Fascism isn't limited to "edgy teens with frog memes". We have growing fascist parties all over Europe and America alike. In case you missed it, a fascist almost won the presidency of your own country.

And secondly: yes, Daesh are fascists too. And they're dangerous. Fascists come in all religious kinds.Your point being?

>mfw he actually think Marine le Pen is a fascist
>mfw he unironically use the term Islamo-Fascist

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