Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Proctopeo]

In Kaiserreich, syndicalists have the tendency to show up when things are bad and make things even worse.

worse how.

Creating new enemies, weakening the country, sometimes becoming comparable to our Soviet Russia. That type of stuff.
Mosley, for example, is a totalitarian socialist instead of a fascist in this timeline.

[Victoriala II]

it's like saying if we vaporized albert einstein the japanese empire would rise again, and before that wed have yuri tryna mind control the world

[Crysuko]

it's like saying if we vaporized albert einstein the japanese empire would rise again, and before that wed have yuri tryna mind control the world

Red Alert 3

[The Parkus Empire]

Then I take it your pastime is breaking windows?

Machiavellian though he was, he wasn't 'bad'.

A: ad hominem, not an argument
B: he ordered atrocities to happen and brutally crushed anyone who opposed him, yes he fecking was.

Franco was, morally speaking, 100% as bad as Lenin, imho

[The Parkus Empire]

He ranks with Robespierre as well.

[The Parkus Empire]

I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.

[Proctopeo]

I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.

At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.

[The Parkus Empire]

I would even go so far as to say that, morally, he was every bit as wicked as those he was fighting.

At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.

He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.

[Crysuko]

At least he was bright enough not to join the Axis.

He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.

that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down

[The Parkus Empire]

He was a very competent fellow, despite being a piece of shit.

that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down

Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.

[Crysuko]

that said, the popular front was a disorganised rabble that couldn't agree on anything and thus ended up being a civil war inside a civil war. you don't exactly have to be napolean to kick this rotten structure down

Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

[The Parkus Empire]

Yes, well at least Stalin tried to pur--, er, fix that.

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

[Crysuko]

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

[The Parkus Empire]

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

I was not referring to Stalin.

[Crysuko]

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

I was not referring to Stalin.

who, then

[United Muscovite Nations]

Purging people is not innately fascist, it was being done by leftists long before fascism existed.

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

[The Parkus Empire]

I was not referring to Stalin.

who, then

Lenin, Robespierre, Marius

[Crysuko]

now I don't want to sound like a steryotype but among many leftist circles, Stalinists or "tankies" are almost universally thrown under the bus as the gulag happy ones. I, for example am a Syndicalist (Thus, Nestor Makhno is bae) and I will happily unite with Socialists, DemSocs and other flavours of anarchist, but the Stalinists are a no go.

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

who, then

Lenin, Robespierre, Marius

I won't defend Lenin, but Robespierre was a liberal.

[The Parkus Empire]

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

Lenin, Robespierre, Marius

I won't defend Lenin, but Robespierre was a liberal.

Joseph Fouche, then

[United Muscovite Nations]

You say this like Makhno didn't purge people.

Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.

https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war

[The Parkus Empire]

Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.

https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war

Sounds like anarchy

[The New Sea Territory]

Citation needed

As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions.

https://libcom.org/history/nestor-makhno-man-myth

What's interesting about the piece you quoted is that the text latter disagrees with these references:

In one area, however, Makhno made a significant compromise with his libertarian principles. As a military leader, it has been noted, he was compelled to inaugurate a form of conscription in order to replenish his forces; and he is known on occasion to have imposed strict measures of military discipline, including summary executions. His violent tendencies, some maintain, were accentuated by bouts with alcohol. Volin underscores Makhno's drinking and carousing nature, and Victor Serge describes him as "boozing, swashbuckling, disorderly and idealistic."15 Hostile observers have compared him to a Chinese warlord, insisting that his army was libertarian only in name. This, however, is not a true picture. Although military considerations inevitably clashed with Makhno's anarchistic doctrines, his army was more popular both in organization and social composition than any other fighting force of his day.

Furthermore, I'm only willing to grant Volin's account might have some weight. Victor Serge left the anarchists to join the Bolsheviks, so his interests lie more in a historical depiction of Makhno that justifies and rationalizes the Red Army's response. Volin, despite explicit disagreement with Makhno over organizational theory, does not appear to benefit from lashing out at a growing regime's enemies from his writings.

The Russian Mennonite diaspora recall the ‘uncontrolled terror’ inflicted by the Makhnovists as they slaughtered hundreds of men, women, and children (Huebert, H.T. & W. Schroeder, p-138);3 ‘Driven by mad violence’ (Toews, p-252) the bandits displayed ‘the bestiality of men who had become raging animals’ (Toews, p-142); ‘Helpless and defenseless, [the Mennonites] were exposed to the horrible reality of an unprecedented, bestial anarchy that expressed the basest human instincts’ (Dick, p-137); ‘This part-targeted, part-random horror lives on in the Mennonite imagination as a kind of ultimate Manichean abomination’ (Dyck, n.d.); etc. ‘By the time of the German withdrawal,’ writes one memoirist, [Makhno] had an army of 100,000 followers, all criminals, all hostile to humanity, their hatred directed against everybody (…) Having stolen most of the horses in the countryside, they exemplified terror on horseback as they carried out their program of plunder, rape and murder with a vengeance.’4 The story of this ‘terrible, hated man’ has become a centrepiece of Mennonite identity and a historical truth passed between generations; here is a representative example from a young Mennonite: ‘In Muensterberg, Makhno beheaded a whole family and set all the heads on display on tables’ (Schroeder, n.d.).5

https://libcom.org/history/makhnovists- ... -civil-war

Again, it seems like you're not quoting the whole article:

This is a story about massacres that occurred in Southern Ukraine between 26th October and 7th December, 1919. The victims, avowedly-pacifist German Mennonites, included several women and elderly people; in Eichenfeld, almost one third of the village population was killed, including a 65 year-old blind woman. All the massacres occurred in the vicinity of the Makhnovist army. And then, after six weeks, they stopped.

This is also the story of an émigré community whose members invented an anarchist bogeyman to justify having betrayed their pacifist principles. It’s about estate owners who earned 3000 times what they paid their labourers, landlords who conscripted soldiers to protect their wealth, and pacifists who fought for an army that killed tens of thousands of Jews.

It seems you're playing the "rich people as victims of revolutionary violence" card, just hidden through selective quotation about minorities and military structure.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

Have you seen the Union of Britain?

Wishful thinking:

Union of Britain

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Stalinism was quasi-fascist but certainly not red.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I think that was the point at which we can safely call it red fascism. and why so many people think that's all the far left is based on one note Mcarthyist propoganda.

Stalinism was quasi-fascist but certainly not red.

Not at all. There's no evidence that Stalin ever betrayed Marxist principles, and many biographers have found that he remained very ideological until his death.