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Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What type of leftist are you?

Left-leaning Centrist
105
13%
Left/Social Liberal
74
9%
Social Democrat
115
14%
Democratic Socialist
139
17%
Marxist Communist
139
17%
Social Anarchist
50
6%
Individualist Anarchist
38
5%
Revolutionary Syndicalist
39
5%
Communalist
27
3%
Other (Please Post)
71
9%
 
Total votes : 797

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Sanctissima
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Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:54 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Y'know, there's ways to win-over the military other than violently purging everyone who disagrees with you.

But not surer ways in such a situation where it just takes one ambitious officer with men more loyal to him than you.


Aye, but again, there are other means. And one has to balance the pros and cons.

Autistically hamstringing your military just to ensure it won't pull a coup d'etat is certainly far worse for a nation than the benefits it might impart.

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 40102
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:55 pm

Webus wrote:Humanism is Christianity for the secular age

Humanism comes from Cicero

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:56 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Webus wrote:Humanism is Christianity for the secular age

Humanism comes from Cicero

Are you capable of nuance?
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 40102
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:56 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:But not surer ways in such a situation where it just takes one ambitious officer with men more loyal to him than you.


Aye, but again, there are other means. And one has to balance the pros and cons.

Autistically hamstringing your military just to ensure it won't pull a coup d'etat is certainly far worse for a nation than the benefits it might impart.

Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.

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Genivaria
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Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:57 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Genivaria wrote:So what happened to the officers from the Imperial army?
Purged?

There were still a few, but the civil war was 19 years earlier by 1936, many had retired. The most notable would be Marshal of the Soviet Union, Semyon Budyonny, who had been a cavalry officer in the Imperial Army.

But, also remember that that meant that these men were educated mostly before the First World War, so their education was only really valuable in a theoretical sense.

...okay fair point there.
Not like the Old School of Pre-WW1 officers were that capable to begin with.
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 11256
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:But not surer ways in such a situation where it just takes one ambitious officer with men more loyal to him than you.

Sad that in this case the disloyal and ambitious officer was already in charge.

The idea of Stalin as disloyal is carefully crafted Cold War propaganda by both Trotskyists and Neocons to discredit him. In reality, Stalin was simply trying to make the best of a bad situation that the revolution found itself in. We can debate the outcome of his attempts, but it would be wrong to dispute his motivations.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Bureaucratic Collectivist.
The Prayer of the Russians wrote:God, save the Tsar! To the glorious one, long days. Give on this earth! To the subduer of the proud, To the keeper of the weak To the comforter of everyone, Grant everything!
Yegor Ligachyov wrote:Public ownership unites, but private ownership disunites people's interests and indisputably causes social stratification of society.... For what purpose was perestroika started? For the purpose of most fully using the potential of socialism. Then does the sale of enterprises into private hands really promote the revealing of the possibilities inherent in the socialist system? No, it does not.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:57 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Aye, but again, there are other means. And one has to balance the pros and cons.

Autistically hamstringing your military just to ensure it won't pull a coup d'etat is certainly far worse for a nation than the benefits it might impart.

Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.

^Stalin. The best ally the Nazis could hope for.
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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Sanctissima
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Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:58 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Aye, but again, there are other means. And one has to balance the pros and cons.

Autistically hamstringing your military just to ensure it won't pull a coup d'etat is certainly far worse for a nation than the benefits it might impart.

Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.


Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 40102
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:58 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Humanism comes from Cicero

Are you capable of nuance?

Sure. I am also capable of recognizing that humanism, contrary to Nietzsche assertion, is not simply secularized Christianity.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 11256
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 16, 2017 4:59 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.


Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

Socialism in One Country was a temporary state which would use Russia as a base for communism to spread. By 1939, Stalin was creating a military machine that very well could have been capable of subjugating all of Europe, and it was only the Second World War that prevented this.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Bureaucratic Collectivist.
The Prayer of the Russians wrote:God, save the Tsar! To the glorious one, long days. Give on this earth! To the subduer of the proud, To the keeper of the weak To the comforter of everyone, Grant everything!
Yegor Ligachyov wrote:Public ownership unites, but private ownership disunites people's interests and indisputably causes social stratification of society.... For what purpose was perestroika started? For the purpose of most fully using the potential of socialism. Then does the sale of enterprises into private hands really promote the revealing of the possibilities inherent in the socialist system? No, it does not.

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The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
Posts: 40102
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:02 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.

^Stalin. The best ally the Nazis could hope for.

Heh, no, that would be an officer who might ally with the Nazis.

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:03 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

Socialism in One Country was a temporary state which would use Russia as a base for communism to spread. By 1939, Stalin was creating a military machine that very well could have been capable of subjugating all of Europe, and it was only the Second World War that prevented this.

And the advent of the nuclear bomb.
I wholly believe that the Soviets could've push the allies out of Europe post-ww2.
Defeated the US on their own soil? Not so much.
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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The Parkus Empire
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Posts: 40102
Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:04 pm

Sanctissima wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Stalin only cares about communism, for that to be achieved he would annihilate his country gladly.


Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

SiOC meant "let's not declare war on the whole planet," not that Stalin stopped supportioning internationalism

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Bakery Hill
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Posts: 10600
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bakery Hill » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:04 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:That's why he shouldn't have bought the fucking land. His doing so was strongly opposed by Federalists for good reason.

No it needed to happen regardless.
America would remain weak as long as it restrained itself to the east coast.

It would have probably been a better country for it. But if you want to try and justify genocide in a leftist fashion don't let me stop you.
Proud Founder of the Committee for Proletarian Morality and Chads for Marxism


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Webus
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 424
Founded: Nov 14, 2013
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Webus » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:05 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Webus wrote:Humanism is Christianity for the secular age

Humanism comes from Cicero

that's not quite what i mean
Last edited by Webus on Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The name of the nation is Ostafrika if you don't mind, not Webus

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:05 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Genivaria wrote:No it needed to happen regardless.
America would remain weak as long as it restrained itself to the east coast.

It would have probably been a better country for it. But if you want to try and justify genocide in a leftist fashion don't let me stop you.

For remaining on the East coast? Yeah not likely.
And I'm not justifying anything.
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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Sanctissima
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:05 pm

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

Socialism in One Country was a temporary state which would use Russia as a base for communism to spread. By 1939, Stalin was creating a military machine that very well could have been capable of subjugating all of Europe, and it was only the Second World War that prevented this.


Hence why it would be necessary to actually maintain the USSR as an entity to achieve his broader goals.

On the point of Stalin stockpiling a massive military-industrial complex, I agree. Despite the early successes of Barbarossa, the sheer scale of the Soviet military machine completely caught them off-guard.

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United Muscovite Nations
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Posts: 11256
Founded: Feb 01, 2017
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby United Muscovite Nations » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:05 pm

Genivaria wrote:
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Socialism in One Country was a temporary state which would use Russia as a base for communism to spread. By 1939, Stalin was creating a military machine that very well could have been capable of subjugating all of Europe, and it was only the Second World War that prevented this.

And the advent of the nuclear bomb.
I wholly believe that the Soviets could've push the allies out of Europe post-ww2.
Defeated the US on their own soil? Not so much.

Yes, but the Soviets didn't want to make that effort, and the nuclear bomb probably wouldn't have been made without WWII. Just looking at the increases in size and mechanization of the Soviet military between 1939 and 1941 is astounding, and that doesn't consider all the stuff they were in the process of building.
Formerly United Marxist Nations, Dec 02, 2011- Feb 01, 2017. +33,837 posts Eastern Orthodox Christian. Bureaucratic Collectivist.
The Prayer of the Russians wrote:God, save the Tsar! To the glorious one, long days. Give on this earth! To the subduer of the proud, To the keeper of the weak To the comforter of everyone, Grant everything!
Yegor Ligachyov wrote:Public ownership unites, but private ownership disunites people's interests and indisputably causes social stratification of society.... For what purpose was perestroika started? For the purpose of most fully using the potential of socialism. Then does the sale of enterprises into private hands really promote the revealing of the possibilities inherent in the socialist system? No, it does not.

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The Widening Gyre
Diplomat
 
Posts: 949
Founded: Jun 01, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The Widening Gyre » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:08 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Webus wrote:Humanism is Christianity for the secular age

Humanism comes from Cicero


The John McCain of late republican Rome was an inheritor of an older Greek tradition. If he should get credit for anything, it's the historical happenstance that lead to his discovery in the Renaissance.
anarchist communist, deep ecologist and agrarianist sympathizer

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Genivaria
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57329
Founded: Mar 29, 2011
Moralistic Democracy

Postby Genivaria » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:10 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Humanism comes from Cicero


The John McCain of late republican Rome was an inheritor of an older Greek tradition. If he should get credit for anything, it's the historical happenstance that lead to his discovery in the Renaissance.

Besides which Renaissance Humanism is not what most people are talking about when they use the word Humanism today.
Which is why I accused Parkus of being incapable of nuance.
Some days I support Liberal Social Democracy, other days I support De-centralized Syndicalist Direct Democracy.

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Sanctissima
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Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:10 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Sanctissima wrote:
Considering his policy of Socialism-in-one-country, I doubt that.

And at any rate, cuckolding your army so thoroughly that it can barely defeat Finland isn't exactly helping Communist ambitions.

SiOC meant "let's not declare war on the whole planet," not that Stalin stopped supportioning internationalism


The entire point was to unite the world under the leadership of the USSR, not to kill off the country.

Sacrificing the USSR for any reason whatsoever would have been antithetical to Stalin's ideals.

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Bakery Hill
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Posts: 10600
Founded: Jul 03, 2016
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Bakery Hill » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:11 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:It would have probably been a better country for it. But if you want to try and justify genocide in a leftist fashion don't let me stop you.

For remaining on the East coast? Yeah not likely.
And I'm not justifying anything.

> Parkus condemns purchase because of all the genocide.
"No it needed to happen regardless."

Sorry but I can't read that exchange any other way.
Proud Founder of the Committee for Proletarian Morality and Chads for Marxism


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Sanctissima
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Posts: 8486
Founded: Jul 16, 2014
Ex-Nation

Postby Sanctissima » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:12 pm

Bakery Hill wrote:
Genivaria wrote:No it needed to happen regardless.
America would remain weak as long as it restrained itself to the east coast.

It would have probably been a better country for it. But if you want to try and justify genocide in a leftist fashion don't let me stop you.


It probably would have been retaken by the British in such a scenario.

But since you're so quick to judge, kindly remind me how Australia didn't do the exact same thing with its own Aboriginal population. :^)

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The Parkus Empire
Post Czar
 
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Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:12 pm

The Widening Gyre wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Humanism comes from Cicero


The John McCain of late republican Rome was an inheritor of an older Greek tradition. If he should get credit for anything, it's the historical happenstance that lead to his discovery in the Renaissance.

Eh, John McCain is about foreign wars, whereas Cicreo said fighting wars except to protect allies was destroying Rome. But yeah, his identification of humanity with God, and seeing each human as a piece, is older tradition; and yes, his rediscovery was why he was so influntial.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Parkus Empire
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Founded: Sep 12, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby The Parkus Empire » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:14 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Widening Gyre wrote:
The John McCain of late republican Rome was an inheritor of an older Greek tradition. If he should get credit for anything, it's the historical happenstance that lead to his discovery in the Renaissance.

Besides which Renaissance Humanism is not what most people are talking about when they use the word Humanism today.
Which is why I accused Parkus of being incapable of nuance.

Humanism of today came out of the renaissance.

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