Left-Wing Discussion Thread III

[Democratic Communist Federation]

"[A] dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants."

I am interested in the emancipation of the workers and the subaltern from the capitalist world system. If that, to you, is authoritarianism, then I am happy I never read much of Hamilton.

[The Parkus Empire]

"[A] dangerous ambition more often lurks behind the specious mask of zeal for the rights of the people than under the forbidden appearance of zeal for the firmness and efficiency of government. History will teach us that the former has been found a much more certain road to the introduction of despotism than the latter, and that of those men who have overturned the liberties of republics, the greatest number have begun their career by paying an obsequious court to the people; commencing demagogues, and ending tyrants."

I am interested in the emancipation of the workers and the subaltern from the capitalist world system. If that, to you, is authoritarianism, then I am happy I never read much of Hamilton.

I think it is fine as a cause, but actually accomplishing it, and simply using it as a label to sanctify suspending due process, are two separate things.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I think it is fine as a cause, but actually accomplishing it, and simply using it as a label to sanctify suspending due process, are two separate things.

Due process for whom? In the U.S., the average American will get almost no due process from the repeal of Internet neutrality and the Republican tax plan.

To me, due process matters for the wretched of the earth. The rest can fend for themselves.

[The Parkus Empire]

I think it is fine as a cause, but actually accomplishing it, and simply using it as a label to sanctify suspending due process, are two separate things.

Due process for whom? In the U.S., the average American will get almost no due process from the repeal of Internet neutrality and the Republican tax plan.

To me, due process matters for the wretched of the earth. The rest can fend for themselves.

To me, due process matters for everyone.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

To me, due process matters for everyone.

Due process for capitalists and imperialists? Not under my watch.

[The Parkus Empire]

To me, due process matters for everyone.

Due process for capitalists and imperialists? Not under my watch.

I cannot ethically abide by that. There is a reason John Adams believed his legal defense of the British soldiers who perpetuated the "Boston Massacre" was one of his greatest contributions to his country. Everyone should have due process, including our mortal enemies.

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I cannot ethically abide by that. There is a reason John Adams believed his legal defense of the British soldiers who perpetuated the "Boston Massacre" was one of his greatest contributions to his country. Everyone should have due process, including our mortal enemies.

Why do you keep on quoting from the U.S. founding fathers to a communist?

[The Parkus Empire]

I cannot ethically abide by that. There is a reason John Adams believed his legal defense of the British soldiers who perpetuated the "Boston Massacre" was one of his greatest contributions to his country. Everyone should have due process, including our mortal enemies.

Why do you keep on quoting from the U.S. founding fathers to a communist?

I didn't quote him, I just referenced him to illustrate that having political enemies, even mortal enemies (John Adams would not make it to the list of Americans who would be pardoned if America surrendered--he was to be hanged by the British government for treason), does not mean we have to deny them due process.

[The Parkus Empire]

In sooth, though, the leftist scorn for the law is not unique to the left. It is also very common to Continental conservatives and others on the right there, it's common to all Continental political thought. I think it is a product of Continentals changing their laws so willy-nilly. They couldn't help but see law as simply the status quo, the articulation of who happens to be running the show. In the United States, our Constitution is hundreds of years old, and while we have added some important things to it, and made our government more democratic, we have, in how we do things, and how our law works, really changed very little in comparison to continentals. Probably the other Anglo states have changed less too, but none is as remarkably consistent as the United States, which allows us to feel that the law is a common possession, something that belongs to everyone and shared by and protects all. It is part of our tradition and identity, it is our guardian. We attach moral value to the law. I do not think Continental theory attaches any moral value to the law.

[Vyzhva]

I cannot ethically abide by that. There is a reason John Adams believed his legal defense of the British soldiers who perpetuated the "Boston Massacre" was one of his greatest contributions to his country. Everyone should have due process, including our mortal enemies.

Why do you keep on quoting from the U.S. founding fathers to a communist?

freemasonry is the darnedest thing

[The Parkus Empire]

Why do you keep on quoting from the U.S. founding fathers to a communist?

freemasonry is the darnedest thing

John Quincy Adams was in the anti Mason Party

[Democratic Communist Federation]

I didn't quote him, I just referenced him to illustrate that having political enemies, even mortal enemies (John Adams would not make it to the list of Americans who would be pardoned if America surrendered--he was to be hanged by the British government for treason), does not mean we have to deny them due process.

You haven't answered my question. Whether you are quoting or merely citing these individuals is beside the point. I am a communist. U.S. imperialism is my enemy. Hence, why would I be interested in the founding fathers of the U.S.?

[The Parkus Empire]

I didn't quote him, I just referenced him to illustrate that having political enemies, even mortal enemies (John Adams would not make it to the list of Americans who would be pardoned if America surrendered--he was to be hanged by the British government for treason), does not mean we have to deny them due process.

You haven't answered my question. Whether you are quoting or merely citing these individuals is beside the point. I am a communist. U.S. imperialism is my enemy. Hence, why would I be interested in the founding fathers of the U.S.?

Ah, it's my enemy too. And John Quincy Adams and John Adams both opposed it

[The Parkus Empire]

Also the Monroe Doctrine is arguably the greatest single measure against imperialism in history

[Ostroeuropa]

Also the Monroe Doctrine is arguably the greatest single measure against imperialism in history

Like the Japanese annexation of korea.

[The Parkus Empire]

Also the Monroe Doctrine is arguably the greatest single measure against imperialism in history

Like the Japanese annexation of korea.

Not really.

[The Parkus Empire]

The Monroe Doctrine was formulated by Johm Quincy Adams, who strongly opposed war with Mexico

[Ostroeuropa]

Like the Japanese annexation of korea.

Not really.

Japan alleged their actions were to fight western imperialism.
The Monroe doctrine was similar, but utilized neo-imperialism.

[Genivaria]

The Monroe Doctrine was formulated by Johm Quincy Adams, who strongly opposed war with Mexico

And?
You know there was a proposal to annex Mexico as states into the US, but it was struck down due to racism.

[Ostroeuropa]

The Monroe Doctrine was formulated by Johm Quincy Adams, who strongly opposed war with Mexico

And?
You know there was a proposal to annex Mexico as states into the US, but it was struck down due to racism.

The racist sweet-spot.
Not bad enough to just go "Why not just kill them all?"
Not bad enough to just go "Well, make them march south."
Not bad enough to go "I know, we'll force them to work our farms."
Juuuuust bad enough to go "Oh my god, but then they'd be citizens! We can't do that! Make them independent!"
Just a bit too much racism for "No no, you're sufficiently similar to us that you don't get your own country. Now stop speaking spanish and learn protestantism. fine, just the northern bit."

[Genivaria]

And?
You know there was a proposal to annex Mexico as states into the US, but it was struck down due to racism.

The racist sweet-spot.
Not bad enough to just go "Why not just kill them all?"
Not bad enough to just go "Well, make them march south."
Not bad enough to go "I know, we'll force them to work our farms."
Juuuuust bad enough to go "Oh my god, but then they'd be citizens! We can't do that! Make them independent!"
Just a bit too much racism for "No no, you're sufficiently similar to us that you don't get your own country. Now stop speaking spanish and learn protestantism. fine, just the northern bit."

Okay that was funny. I lol'd.

[The Parkus Empire]

The Monroe Doctrine was formulated by Johm Quincy Adams, who strongly opposed war with Mexico

And?
You know there was a proposal to annex Mexico as states into the US, but it was struck down due to racism.

That was Calhoun's sentiment. John Quincy Adams opposed it because he considered imperialism immoral.

[Genivaria]

And?
You know there was a proposal to annex Mexico as states into the US, but it was struck down due to racism.

That was Calhoun's sentiment. John Quincy Adams opposed it because he considered imperialism immoral.

Calhoun was the evil godfather of the Confederacy and looked like a cartoon villain.
He was also an anti-imperialist.

[Ostroeuropa]

That was Calhoun's sentiment. John Quincy Adams opposed it because he considered imperialism immoral.

Calhoun was the evil godfather of the Confederacy and looked like a cartoon villain.

The republic will be reorganized into the first confederate states of america! For a safe and secure slave plantation.

[Genivaria]

Calhoun was the evil godfather of the Confederacy and looked like a cartoon villain.

The republic will be reorganized into the first confederate states of america! For a safe and secure slave plantation.

-Actual quote by John C. Calhoun, probably