Is a Universal Income the Solution to Robot Workplaces

[Valgora]

If companies/governments get powerful enough, money won't matter anymore, nor will consumerism.

Yep. When they are sufficiently powerful and rich we will be as useful as ants in forests. You know they may kill some ants just for fun even though ants aren't really troublesome.

This is why we need guns.
But then there all those gun grabbers.

But this gun thing is an argument for a different topic.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Nah, it means that non-skilled humans are fired, leading to widespread poverty.

but people shouldnt have to work to live its demeaning

It's nature - what are you 16?

[TheRedArrow]

agreed--without work there are no more elites to oppress us

Nope. Without work or other stuff we can do that elites benefit from ordinary humans are as useful as nuclear waste.

Even slavery is less bad then extermination though slavery is horrible. At least a slave does work for their master hence the master let them live for another day.

its because of us that the elites dont have to work--if we let robots do all the work then we become the new elites

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Yep. When they are sufficiently powerful and rich we will be as useful as ants in forests. You know they may kill some ants just for fun even though ants aren't really troublesome.

This is why we need guns.
But then there all those gun grabbers.

But this gun thing is an argument for a different topic.

No, this is ludicrous. A bunch of idiot civilians armed with rifles and pistols? They'd laugh in the face of this ultimately.

Resistance is futile. The Borg has already taught us well.

[Katzenstaat]

Yep. When they are sufficiently powerful and rich we will be as useful as ants in forests. You know they may kill some ants just for fun even though ants aren't really troublesome.

This is why we need guns.
But then there all those gun grabbers.

But this gun thing is an argument for a different topic.

Yes. But we need more than just guns. We also need tanks, planes, etc. Guns can't stop or even deter an extermination by biological agents.

[Aillyria]

The universe is a cruel and amoral place. Christianity, liberalism and other nice-looking ideologies are basically reality denial. Sorry.

Humanity is only amoral if it allows itself to fall to its primitive instincts.

[Katzenstaat]

The universe is a cruel and amoral place. Christianity, liberalism and other nice-looking ideologies are basically reality denial. Sorry.

Humanity is only amoral if it allows itself to fall to its primitive instincts.

Which moral system are we supposed to choose though?

Please don't say "Islam" unless you can prove the existence of Allah. We need shared morality and people can't agree on whether Allah exists.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Nah, it means that non-skilled humans are fired, leading to widespread poverty.

but people shouldnt have to work to live its demeaning

Work is fulfilling, and you have to do it in a natural state. Any lack of necessity of work would be artificial, and vulnerable to collapse.

[Telconi]

Don't change know that all the former agriculture workers who milked cows by hand are just guaranteed an income because a milking carousel replaced them?

When work in the country dried up they moved to cities. When work in the cities dries up they...? Move underwater?

The location wasn't the functional difference, the job was. With every invention work forces change. When the locomotive was invented, demand for wagon train drivers dropped, but suddenly railroad workers were in high demand.

Point being that as cliche as it sounds, as one door is closed another is opened. Despite massive automation, we still manage to employ most everyone. And we will continue to do so.

[Stellar Colonies]

If we consider extremely long timescales, then having humanity not have to work for a living could lead to us devolving.

why do you put work on a higher scale then pleasure?

That's not really what I said.

[TheRedArrow]

Since Robots Seem to be the trend of the future in the service and manufacturing industries making work itself obsolete for the majority of people doesnt it make more sense to pay people to be good consumers instead of having people pretending to "look busy" performing meaningless tasks as a wage slave just to indulge an antiquated concept of earning their keep? if people were liberated from work they can concentrate instead on creating newer innovations to raise our standard of living in a totally leisure based pleasure economy

So... cattle?

Our purpose becomes to consume and reproduce so that the 1% maintain their position of absolute and unquestioned power over us? I prefer freedom and purpose over pleasure and complacency.

Consider for a moment who is put in charge of this system. Not everyone will be on the UBI, 99% of people, but not all. The UBI would be provided by the government, but with everyone being unemployed and in turn receiving all their money from the government where do taxes come from? The 1% of people who actually own everything ( you wanna talk about wealth inequality, the 1% in this scenario would actually own 99% of the wealth ). With the 1% owning literally all the means of production and paying for the government's entire revenue they become absolutely powerful.

And that is just the economic and corruption argument, spiritually this would also be dreadful. Turning human beings into cattle concerned only with short termed and selfish pleasure who's only purpose is to consume and die.

I am for anti-automation laws 100% ( without going back to like the industrial revolution standards of things obviously ). We may make less money, but we would be better off as people.

ok you make some very valid points -then people should work but to take the sting out of it be paid with mind altering drugs that give us a state of bliss instead of with money --there is enough of everything in the world where people shouldnt have to pay for things anyway

[Sovaal]

This is why we need guns.
But then there all those gun grabbers.

But this gun thing is an argument for a different topic.

No, this is ludicrous. A bunch of idiot civilians armed with rifles and pistols? They'd laugh in the face of this ultimately.

Thing is, once you get to a certain number of people, technological advantages begin to lessen in impact.

Resistance is futile. The Borg has already taught us well.

Nah man.

[Republic of the Cristo]

Nope. Without work or other stuff we can do that elites benefit from ordinary humans are as useful as nuclear waste.

Even slavery is less bad then extermination though slavery is horrible. At least a slave does work for their master hence the master let them live for another day.

its because of us that the elites dont have to work--if we let robots do all the work then we become the new elites

and who pays for this UBI?

The real elites, who now own literally everything and who completely dominate your life. That's who.

[Western Pacific Territories]

This is why we need guns.
But then there all those gun grabbers.

But this gun thing is an argument for a different topic.

No, this is ludicrous. A bunch of idiot civilians armed with rifles and pistols? They'd laugh in the face of this ultimately.

Resistance is futile. The Borg has already taught us well.

This 'oh 2nd amendment is futile the government has tanks' argument is really annoying to be honest. I find it funny that Afghanistani insurgents who have had to use pre-WW1 Martini-Henrys for sniper rifles could run circles around us but that a developed nation full of gun-toting activists, almost all with gun training and modern weaponry couldn't do the same on home turf. When biological mass-extermination becomes a option for the government it was game over for the 99% anyways.

e: realized this might be satire, point stands

[HMS Queen Elizabeth]

This is the dumbest normie meme ever. It will come to nothing and when it does I will justly mock you all mercilessly.

[TheRedArrow]

Something cannot be both cruel and amoral.

So ideology in general then?

Not really. Darwinism and Hobbesianism view the universe in a cynical manner.

The universe is amoral because it is not equipped with an internal moral code. It is cruel because it permits and is full of what we humans consider cruelty.

its "cruel" because our primary motivation is to feel good and be happy

[Republic of the Cristo]

So... cattle?

Our purpose becomes to consume and reproduce so that the 1% maintain their position of absolute and unquestioned power over us? I prefer freedom and purpose over pleasure and complacency.

Consider for a moment who is put in charge of this system. Not everyone will be on the UBI, 99% of people, but not all. The UBI would be provided by the government, but with everyone being unemployed and in turn receiving all their money from the government where do taxes come from? The 1% of people who actually own everything ( you wanna talk about wealth inequality, the 1% in this scenario would actually own 99% of the wealth ). With the 1% owning literally all the means of production and paying for the government's entire revenue they become absolutely powerful.

And that is just the economic and corruption argument, spiritually this would also be dreadful. Turning human beings into cattle concerned only with short termed and selfish pleasure who's only purpose is to consume and die.

I am for anti-automation laws 100% ( without going back to like the industrial revolution standards of things obviously ). We may make less money, but we would be better off as people.

ok you make some very valid points -then people should work but to take the sting out of it be paid with mind altering drugs that give us a state of bliss instead of with money --there is enough of everything in the world where people shouldnt have to pay for things anyway

Mind altering drugs can't buy you food. Barter maybe, but not everyone want's drugs. You would have to be paid in money otherwise the UBI doesn't work. Money is the only thing which is universally accepted in the exchange of products.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

No, this is ludicrous. A bunch of idiot civilians armed with rifles and pistols? They'd laugh in the face of this ultimately.

Resistance is futile. The Borg has already taught us well.

This 'oh 2nd amendment is futile the government has tanks' argument is really annoying to be honest. I find it funny that Afghanistani insurgents who have had to use pre-WW1 Martini-Henrys for sniper rifles could run circles around us but that a developed nation full of gun-toting activists, almost all with gun training and modern weaponry couldn't do the same on home turf. When biological mass-extermination becomes a option for the government it was game over for the 99% anyways.

e: realized this might be satire, point stands

This debate is not limited to the United States of America, friend.

[TheRedArrow]

why do you put work on a higher scale then pleasure?

Because without work, no one lives. Work will always have to be done, whether you enjoy it or not.

no offense but that sounds so 20th century-isnt it time to escape the base animal level of cause and effect existence and ascend to the higher planes of living beyond all need

[Western Pacific Territories]

This 'oh 2nd amendment is futile the government has tanks' argument is really annoying to be honest. I find it funny that Afghanistani insurgents who have had to use pre-WW1 Martini-Henrys for sniper rifles could run circles around us but that a developed nation full of gun-toting activists, almost all with gun training and modern weaponry couldn't do the same on home turf. When biological mass-extermination becomes a option for the government it was game over for the 99% anyways.

e: realized this might be satire, point stands

This debate is not limited to the United States of America, friend.

Eh, true. Not many nations have the luxury of a 2nd amendment basically guaranteeing a extremely bloody rebellion if the country goes full dictatorship.

[Sovaal]

Not really. Darwinism and Hobbesianism view the universe in a cynical manner.

The universe is amoral because it is not equipped with an internal moral code. It is cruel because it permits and is full of what we humans consider cruelty.

its "cruel" because our primary motivation is to feel good and be happy

And these motivates exist to get us to actually work. In the wild, sweet and savory things had to be found by foraging. Hell, we're so lazy that we had to evolve the orgasm to get our ancestors ( like ancient not even human) to reproduce. Take away the work and people are going to start looking like the humans in Wall-E.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

This debate is not limited to the United States of America, friend.

Eh, true. Not many nations have the luxury of a 2nd amendment basically guaranteeing a extremely bloody rebellion if the country goes full dictatorship.

I live in Canada, and I thank God we have nothing as abhorrent as the Second Amendment, but, we're getting off topic.

If governments/corporations grow so powerful, bottom line: there's nothing we can do to stop them, ultimately. Period. The automation of humanity and the replacement of human workers by AI/robotics is something we will not be able to stop once momentum really starts to build.

[TheRedArrow]

the robots can do it all while we create innovations to maximize our pleasure

This has been considered by us rationalists as well. You should visit LessWrong for more information.

Single-issue optimization is a very bad idea in general when a really powerful optimizer tries to perform it.

thanks for these thoughtful insights-- how do i get to LessWrong?

[Greed and Death]

^It's actually good to work. When you are economically useful people won't try to exterminate you. Work is a form of economic leverage we have over elites which is good for us.

As the pyramid of capitalism makes clear your job is to work for everyone and my job is to eat for everyone.

[TheRedArrow]

but people shouldnt have to work to live its demeaning

It's nature - what are you 16?

im just trying to think like a god and not some animal