NationStates

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:52 am**

The Blaatschapen wrote:What I think?

Someone who has been posting shit threads all day (PrayToShinji, not you, Kat <3) does not deserve such a long post as a response.

Beyond that, yes, it is broken. A Dutchman with a grudge has said so

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chaos

Consider it an inspiration for those who simply have difficulty understanding how to begin a thread that will not immediately descend into spam and shitposting because of woefully insufficient starter posts.

We've a discussion a dozen pages long with very few off topic and spam posts, because there is enough of interest to discuss.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:54 am**

Katganistan wrote:
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:I like how many of the words we borrow have their own history of where we borrowed them of the mixture of different groups of people throughout history.
The Etymology of some words is fascinating.

Is this a legit sentence or are you doing the ol bamboozle?

Cos right now i'm leanin toward the ol bamboozle.

I've never heard that sentence, or anything like it, before. I had had some interesting experiences in the language previously, but nothing like that.

Here's a wikipedia article

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:54 am**

Risottia wrote:
Katganistan wrote:

It's pretty hard for me as well. I know I tend to typo (and then correct) on here, but after a while grading I will see something misspelled so many times I have to check the dictionary to make sure that *I* am not the one who's wrong.
...

Same here. Plus, I'm not a native speaker (English isn't even my second language), so making sense of broken English is even harder for me.

You could seriously teach my students a thing or ten about proper English.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:10 am**

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Katganistan wrote:Well that has a cheerful ring to it, doesn't it?

I like the Council of Elrond. I think we should try to do something like this in real life to solve real life problems, including the flaws of English.

I wouldn't say English's irregularities and historical accidents are worth summoning various quarrelsome, self-important personages for.

But more importantly, the Council of Elrond had nothing to do with regluing the spork that was busted. The Council (accidentally) decided to toss some bit of costume jewelry into Doom's crack, or something like that. No crumpled cutlery was reforged during or because of that meeting, except as a side effect.

Katganistan wrote:But other languages -- like Spanish -- also have their quirks when dealing with words absorbed from other languages. For instance: in Spain, the humble peanut is el cacahuate. In parts of Latin America, it's el mani. In Mexico, tomato is jitomate, while in Spain it's el tomate. In other words, there are words that Spanish absorbed in the new world -- the natives' words for things -- that are different from the Spanish word Europeans use. [...] These influences don't take away from the beauty of the language -- it tells a great deal about the history and cultures that helped them evolve.

"Evolve" is the key word: languages must absorb new concepts or die, and the easiest -- and frequently the best -- way to do that is simply to grab new words for new things, and accept that they don't quite fit fusty, preconceived notions of how languages "should" work. If "chaos", "chimp" and "chevron" all have different sounds but are spelled the same, fine. Better that than English lacking the concepts, or the Dark Lords of English Purity spending decades deciding on the "official" words for them.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:13 am**

Sovaal wrote:
Katganistan wrote:I've never heard that sentence, or anything like it, before. I had had some interesting experiences in the language previously, but nothing like that.

Here's a wikipedia article

Pfft, well if you're going to omit the punctuation, how should anyone interpret that correctly? And honestly, it's a purely academic exercise -- no one would ever utter that in conversation (unless they were being a smug, egotistical bastard lording it over the rest of the peons around them) any more than I would expect anyone other than Mathias Énard to put together a properly punctuated one-sentence novel -- of 517 pages. (No doubt some smug, egotistical bastard will publish one of 516 pages just to say, 'Eat it, Énard!' -- but these things cannot be seen as the norm.)

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:18 am**

Katganistan wrote:
Drittes Grossdeutsches Reich wrote:Every native anglophone that has learned a second language realizes that English are just dumb, if the English didn't sailed around enslaving everyone forcing their language the global language wouldn't be English hence I'd never needed to learn them, Spanish and French are so much better.

Funny, I've studied French and Italian and while both have their charms, I don't think English is dumb.

And let's not go pointing fingers about world conquest shall we?

Can I point hooves instead? I'm Dutch, living in Germany, surely this will not backfire at all!

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:19 am**

Katganistan wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Here's a wikipedia article

Pfft, well if you're going to omit the punctuation, how should anyone interpret that correctly? And honestly, it's a purely academic exercise -- no one would ever utter that in conversation (unless they were being a smug, egotistical bastard lording it over the rest of the peons around them) any more than I would expect anyone other than Mathias Énard to put together a properly punctuated one-sentence novel -- of 517 pages. (No doubt some smug, egotistical bastard will publish one of 516 pages just to say, 'Eat it, Énard!' -- but these things cannot be seen as the norm.)

Well of course it's an academic exercise. These grammatical anomalies that people push to show that English is broken or something are just that, anomalies.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:21 am**

In my opinion, English does have some flaws, but it's not broken. Oh, and just saying, English is my first language, and I'm learning German.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:22 am**

Katganistan wrote:
Aillyria wrote:Yeah...no.

English is my L1 and I absolutely love it. English as a language has an interesting history, and is one of the most expressive languages in the world. The common misconceptions about our language being broken or being illogical are incredibly false, and is due to an ignorance of its complex evolution. English spelling conventions are actually more or less predictable if you have studied the history.

And honestly, the spelling irregularities come from the fact that it's absorbed so many other languages into it.

But other languages -- like Spanish -- also have their quirks when dealing with words absorbed from other languages. For instance: in Spain, the humble peanut is el cacahuate. In parts of Latin America, it's el mani. In Mexico, tomato is jitomate, while in Spain it's el tomate. In other words, there are words that Spanish absorbed in the new world -- the natives' words for things -- that are different from the Spanish word Europeans use.

No one seems much fussed nor confused about there being completely different words for the same thing, though.

And Spanish also absorbed a good bit of Arabic and Arab culture -- algodon is clearly quite close to قُطْن (cutton is what it sounds like), and ojalá from law sha'a Allah.

These influences don't take away from the beauty of the language -- it tells a great deal about the history and cultures that helped them evolve.

Indeed Spanish does. We are also a rather muttish peoples. Once indigenous words from the Americas entered the language, not to mention the Mudejar influence, for 800+ years and African words during the slave trade, Spanish is as mixed as English. Save very few languages like Japanese (and even Japanese has become rather mixed too now with influences from English), every language has had some tampering done on it.

We're a world of lingual mutts!!

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:23 am**

Drittes Grossdeutsches Reich wrote:Every native anglophone that has learned a second language realizes that English are just dumb, if the English didn't sailed around enslaving everyone forcing their language the global language wouldn't be English hence I'd never needed to learn them, Spanish and French are so much better.

If the Spanish and french didn't go around enslaving an conquering people, you wouldn't have to learn Spanish or French either.

I've learned some Spanish, seems just as good of a language as my native English.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:23 am**

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:We're a world of lingual mutts!!

Well, 'cept for some dying language originating between Spain and Germany. But they'll all be speaking English soon enough.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:26 am**

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:We're a world of lingual mutts!!

Well, 'cept for some dying language originating between Spain and Germany. But they'll all be speaking English soon enough.

Gauls and most Continental Celtic languages have been dead for a while.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:28 am**

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:We're a world of lingual mutts!!

Well, 'cept for some dying language originating between Spain and Germany. But they'll all be speaking English soon enough.

I should have added isolates like undiscoveted tribal languages in the Amazon. Was also thinking about Basque, but even Basque has had influences in it from Spanish, like the word 'esquerra'- izquierda, which means 'left'.

In essence, what I want to say is that it's unfair to call English broken. Languages are dynamic. Ever changing.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:13 pm**

Sovaal wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:Well, 'cept for some dying language originating between Spain and Germany. But they'll all be speaking English soon enough.

Gauls and most Continental Celtic languages have been dead for a while.

I was thinking of the language that gave English a certain je nes sais quoi, but now is itself fading in favor of English. C'est la vie.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:15 pm**

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Gauls and most Continental Celtic languages have been dead for a while.

I was thinking of the language that gave English a certain je nes sais quoi, but now is itself fading in favor of English. C'est la vie.

The number of French speakers is still growing. French isn't just spoken in France, y'know.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:44 pm**

Sovaal wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:I was thinking of the language that gave English a certain je nes sais quoi, but now is itself fading in favor of English. C'est la vie.

The number of French speakers is still growing.

I didn't know that, but I hadn't realized how many people spoke it in France's former African colonies.

But as far as I can tell, it's long since past its peak as a language spoken as a proportion of the world's population, so we'll get them eventually.

And then English will fragment into mutually-incomprehensible dialects, and all will be as it should.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 12:47 pm**

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Sovaal wrote:The number of French speakers is still growing.

I didn't know that, but I hadn't realized how many people spoke it in France's former African colonies.

But as far as I can tell, it's long since past its peak as a language spoken as a proportion of the world's population, so we'll get them eventually.

And then English will fragment into mutually-incomprehensible dialects, and all will be as it should.

Such an event would be an uber-Roman collapse style event, and I bet the rest of the west, and modern world as well, would go down with it. Better brush up on your Africain.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 1:29 pm**

Sovaal wrote:
Northwest Slobovia wrote:I didn't know that, but I hadn't realized how many people spoke it in France's former African colonies.

But as far as I can tell, it's long since past its peak as a language spoken as a proportion of the world's population, so we'll get them eventually.

And then English will fragment into mutually-incomprehensible dialects, and all will be as it should.

Such an event would be an uber-Roman collapse style event, and I bet the rest of the west, and modern world as well, would go down with it. Better brush up on your Africain.

I don't see why. North American English may turn into Spanglish, Chinese English into Chinglish. There might be a "formal" English dialect, too, used by international professionals and diplomats, the way Latin was for a while, but that doesn't mean everybody would speak it. If languages evolve -- and I think they do -- they ought to speciate too, though by obviously different routes than living things.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 3:05 pm**

Sovaal wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:To this day, I am still amazed that despite the western world's obsession with Japanese TV, Japanese comics, Japanese video games and Japanese music, Japan still takes the initiative to learn our language, instead of telling us to learn theirs. It almost feels too good to be true.

I don't know who to believe on which language is harder to learn (obviously having grown up with one of them, I can't speak for comparison, and even those who learned each as a second language might not necessarily respond genuinely if asked) but I hope English is easier to learn, not just because I'm considering being one of the ones to teach it, but because I'd hate to think Japan is just being so accommodating as to do something more difficult for them than learning Japanese might have been for us.

I mean, Japanese is largely only spoken on the home islands, while many of the most wide spoken languages in the world(as in both population and area) are Western in origin.

"Home islands"?

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:11 pm**

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Sovaal wrote:I mean, Japanese is largely only spoken on the home islands, while many of the most wide spoken languages in the world(as in both population and area) are Western in origin.

"Home islands"?

I think he means in the Japan and its islands.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 6:33 pm**

Minoa wrote:
Mad hatters in jeans wrote:I like how many of the words we borrow have their own history of where we borrowed them of the mixture of different groups of people throughout history.
The Etymology of some words is fascinating.

Is this a legit sentence or are you doing the ol bamboozle?

Cos right now i'm leanin toward the ol bamboozle.

It is real, albeit leaning towards boundary testing scenarios.

Oh I remember seeing the ship shipping ships thing. Wow was that really 2014?

Kinda seems like when someone uses a stupid cheat in a game to bug the character out, most of those sentences are just aberrations of the norm. The ship shipping ship is possible to see though.

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Sovaal wrote:I mean, Japanese is largely only spoken on the home islands, while many of the most wide spoken languages in the world(as in both population and area) are Western in origin.

"Home islands"?

Yah, like how Football can be played on the home turf.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:36 pm**

OMG yes. yes English is broken when written specifically but also just as a whole.

1. We have exceptions to every rule. What is the point of rules if they are not followed.
2. We are a combination of Anglish, French, Spanish, and Latin. We should not be like this. Just get rid of all the non germanic words that simple.
3. Silent letters. THEY MUST ALL DIE!
4. Words that are spelt the same or that sound the same that means the opposite. >_> Seriously could you be more confusing.
5. Tons of words have several meanings. Your, you're they're, there, their here, hear too, two, to, Bye, by, buy just to name a few.
6. Different spellings for American and commonwealth English.
7. Letters with no sound. (C, X) C(S-K) X(KS). They need to go bye bye.
8. Lack of emotional words. English is not the language of banks for nothing.

How would I fix it?
Make English consist of only Germanic words.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 7:55 pm**

Northwest Slobovia wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Such an event would be an uber-Roman collapse style event, and I bet the rest of the west, and modern world as well, would go down with it. Better brush up on your Africain.

I don't see why. North American English may turn into Spanglish, Chinese English into Chinglish.
Thing is, they would be dialects of English, and not as widespread as normal English, but rather more pidjin languages. To have a language with a media presence like English to divide like Latin did today would require a collapse of communication between areas, and hence, civilization.

I bet you're think about during the medieval era, which started when the Roman empire collapsed, and hence large amounts of communications between areas.

Latin evolved into the Romance languages we see today because the Roman empire collapsed, because they became isolated, allowing for them to change on their own independently of each other. For a language with such a large presence in communications such as English to do that, would require for said communications, such as television, widespread prints, the internet, etc, to collapse as well, and well, our modern civilization is built on said system.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:13 pm**

Republic of Keshiland wrote:OMG yes. yes English is broken when written specifically but also just as a whole.

1. We have exceptions to every rule. What is the point of rules if they are not followed.

English isn't the only language to do this. For example, several words in the spanish language, despite ending in a vowel that would mean that they are one gender, but instead have the opposite gender descriptive noun(? El, Ella, etc) instead.

2. We are a combination of Anglish,[/quote]
Anglo-Saxon. Anglish is a conlang

French, Spanish, and Latin.

Plenty of other languages have plenty of loan words in their vocabulary. How is Eng;lish having the majority of it's vocabulary being loan words a bad thing?

We should not be like this. Just get rid of all the non germanic words that simple.

Uh, no. This is extremely stupid. They'res a reason said words are there, and they literally do no harm.

3. Silent letters. THEY MUST ALL DIE!

Again, English isn't the only language to have these.

4. Words that are spelt the same or that sound the same that means the opposite. >_> Seriously could you be more confusing.

Examples? Or do you mean homophone? Because those aren't the same as antonyms.

5. Tons of words have several meanings. Your, you're they're, there, their here, hear too, two, to, Bye, by, buy just to name a few.

And what's wrong with these? They can be annoying if you don't remember their contexts correctly, but they're not that bad.

6. Different spellings for American and commonwealth English.

What you get when there is no central authority for the language.

7. Letters with no sound. (C, X) C(S-K) X(KS). They need to go bye bye.

Do you know what such a change would require? We would have to completely revamp every written medium at great cost for little gain.

8. Lack of emotional words. English is not the language of banks for nothing.

The hell do you mean by this? Never read any English poetry? No Robert Frost? Have you read political pieces such as those by Thomas Paine?\And I'm pretty sure that plenty of banks use plenty of other languages as well.

How would I fix it?
Make English consist of only Germanic words.

Again, that would "fix" nothing. English's broken qualities have more to do with writing then it's actual vocabulary.

Posted: **Sat Oct 21, 2017 8:19 pm**

Republic of Keshiland wrote:OMG yes. yes English is broken when written specifically but also just as a whole.

1. We have exceptions to every rule. What is the point of rules if they are not followed.
2. We are a combination of Anglish, French, Spanish, and Latin. We should not be like this. Just get rid of all the non germanic words that simple.
3. Silent letters. THEY MUST ALL DIE!
4. Words that are spelt the same or that sound the same that means the opposite. >_> Seriously could you be more confusing.
5. Tons of words have several meanings. Your, you're they're, there, their here, hear too, two, to, Bye, by, buy just to name a few.
6. Different spellings for American and commonwealth English.
7. Letters with no sound. (C, X) C(S-K) X(KS). They need to go bye bye.
8. Lack of emotional words. English is not the language of banks for nothing.

How would I fix it?
Make English consist of only Germanic words.

1. I don't think so, give examples. I'd be suprised if you found very many.

2. English is English, it isn't "mixed" with anything. It took vocab from languages it contacted, a good example of other languages that have a large portion of their native vocab replaced are Romanian (heavy Bulgarian and Church Slavonic influence), Japanese (heavy Old and Middle Chinese influence), and Maltese (heavy Italian and English influence)

3. Remove silent letters are you can't tell homophones apart in writing, way to go, you just made reading alot harder.

4. What? Sounds the same with opposite meaning, never seen it.

5. That's because they're NOT the same words, they're homophones. Words that evolved to sound the same over the course of the language's phonological history.

6. Simply convention, not an issue really.

7. Again, due to English's history. Our soft C before E and I is from absorbing French vocab, and hence mimics the historic palatalization of Latin [k] to [s] in Western Romance, this change is also responsible for Italian and Romanian [tS] before I and E. Letter X is inherited from Greek through Latin.

8. What do you mean "lack of emotional words"? English has no shortage of terms for emotional states.

NationStates

English: A Broken Language?