NationStates

Neutraligon wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Seems to me that the campaign is a way to open dialogue.

It isn't. Not in this thread, and definitely not outside of this site, at all.

All I see is a bunch of people tweeting or putting up in their statuses "#metoo" or a variation of it. Nobody is asking or engaging in the difficult questions that need to be asked.

Liriena wrote:

Longweather wrote:Damn you beat me to posting a topic on the matter. I wish there was a question though to further facilitate discussion.

Honestly, I'm too terrified to post a "me too" despite it being applicable to my life way too often since I've begun dwelling on my experiences after reading one of Galloism's threads a long while ago. I doubt I'd get much support for obvious reasons.

Do it. There's the risk that some douchebags will be douchebags about it, but if you have a story to tell, you should tell it.

The Huskar Social Union wrote:

Longweather wrote:Damn you beat me to posting a topic on the matter. I wish there was a question though to further facilitate discussion.

Honestly, I'm too terrified to post a "me too" despite it being applicable to my life way too often since I've begun dwelling on my experiences after reading one of Galloism's threads a long while ago. I doubt I'd get much support for obvious reasons.

Talk about it, some people will be fucking twats, but i have no doubt many many more will be supportive of you.

I'm having trouble writing the following sentence, my preemptive apologies if I mess it up. I've not had good experiences trying to open up about these issues before in the past, to the point that I won't share it in a less than anonymous environment. Considering the main portion is on Twitter and I only have Facebook (it's bled over but not too much so far), I don't feel safe doing so.

Liriena wrote:

Longweather wrote:
Not necessarily. A one-sided campaign can lead to further marginalization of male victims.

Is it a "one-sided" campaign, though? New Edom acts like it is, but I haven't seen anyone who's participated in it say "men cannot share their experiences with sexual harassment".

That this campaign appears to have mostly attracted women and their experiences so far might have something to do with the fact that it's a response to the Harvey Weinstein scandal, which was about male-on-female sexual harassment.

It's implicitly one-sided. It can be seen in many of the posts women are making and the initial one by Alyssa Milano.

Ostroeuropa wrote:So I checked the MRM reddit. Comments on it are mostly reporting negative reactions from gynocentrists to men posting it on facebook, as well as most of them just going along with it and posting it.

So there's legitimate grievance here caused by the gynocentric focus, for instance, top comment:

A male friend of mine posted it and was told he's "not funny or original". He was molested at age 6 for over a year...

And

I explained that I was sexually harassed when I was 16 by a co-worker, and when I brought it to the attention of my manager, I was not only laughed at for my outrageous reaction, but I was also informed that the manager was in on it. It was emasculating and infuriating. This person replied and told me that women have it so much worse than that, so I don't deserve equality with regards to the attention "me too" is getting.

I'd wager those who posted without incident aren't posting in the reddit thread about the metoo campaign.

By making it a gynocentric campaign, as usual, we see the misandrists come out of the woodwork, even if it is later forced into being more egalitarian.

Oh, and this one.
https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/com ... /?sort=top

I know these feels. Watching domestic abusers get up and rant about "Womens issues" in domestic violence gets me similarly.

Dammit, this would have broken my heart if it hadn't already been smashed to pieces and ground to dust.

Luminesa wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:The point of this particular hashtag is to share experiences - to let it be known that there are people you know who've experienced this kind of shit. If it was just a hashtag, you'd have a point. But it's not. It's a tag to mark the ubiquity of such personal stories in the wake of a scandal.

You could go on Facebook and do the exact same thing with no 140-character limit. Twitter handles are simply empty words that are inaccurate and tell nothing about the intricacies of abuse, which is what needs to be addressed. We know abuse exists, and that it exists very much among people we know. This isn’t news. What would be truly revolutionary would be something that can help pull men and women out of the cycle of abuse.

Lumi, Twitter is not the only social media platform out there. I've seen the tag in Facebook, IG, several other forums, Reddit... Perhaps one can't have a meaningful exchange in Twitter, but I've seen some amazing developments regarding this tag on FB and IG. There are people truly talking about sexual abuse, and harassment. I think that has weight.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Awareness is only worth it if the person doing the awareness is also trying to open dialogue.

If the dialogue is not started, all you're really trying to do is join in with the crowd so other people can rubberneck at you.

Awareness is the first step to opening dialogue. People aren't generally going online and sharing deeply personal stories about being abused or harassed for personal attention.

Vassenor wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

But that's injurious to the narrative that this is all about oppressing men, so I presume we're not going to be allowed to talk about that.

Me too.
[If all the women who have been sexually harassed or assaulted wrote "Me too" as a status, we might give people a sense of the magnitude of the problem.
Please copy/paste.]

This is the version I have seen on facebook. The problem with this, and it is a problem, is that it reinforces the message that sexual assaults can only be carried out against women or that it is predominantly a female problem.

I have been sexually assaulted on at least two occasions. But for years after these had happened I never considered it to be sexual assault. Sure that girl had groped my penis while I repeatedly told her to stop but it never even occurred to me that I had been a victim of sexual assault.

I guess what I am trying to say is that it took a long time for me to come to terms with the fact that I, as a grown man, could have been sexually assaulted. Including male victims, either through keeping the language gender-neutral or explicitly including them would do a lot to combat this type of thing.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:

Neutraligon wrote:Seems to me that the campaign is a way to open dialogue.

It isn't. Not in this thread, and definitely not outside of this site, at all.

All I see is a bunch of people tweeting or putting up in their statuses "#metoo" or a variation of it. Nobody is asking or engaging in the difficult questions that need to be asked.

Presumably it might have effects on people who think sexual harrassment is an overblown issue used by political opponents, but then see a female relative or friend post it and reconsider.

Personally i'd wager that those types have mostly already been tapped and we're now down to those who simply don't give a fuck.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Liriena wrote:Yeah, sure, baselessly take credit. If you can't convincingly complain that this is a gynocentrist ploy, turn it into a meninist victory.

It is gynocentric, and the willingness of men to come forward regardless is in part due to the MRM and campaigning against gynocentrism and the cultural shift that has occured over the years due to it, especially online.

Okay, I believe you believe that.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Liriena wrote:I see you only start to care about context when it suits you. Cool.

Context such as?

Your "this is gynocentrist" complaint only really has any hope of working if we ignore the fact that all of this is happening in response to the Weinstein scandal.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:Later in my post I used the term "Twitter hashtag campaigns", which I'm pretty sure does accurately describe it.
My point still stands, by the way. The campaign alone won't be enough to do more than a little; raise awareness, perhaps, but with limited scope.

I don't think anyone was saying that this was going to change the world. But sharing stories and raising awareness isn't a pointless endeavor. A building is generally made from many small bricks, not one massive one.

We're all aware abuse happens. If this is just to raise awareness that people are sexually harassed, good job, you've contributed nothing. It happens, we know it happens.

The question is: so what? What are the proper questions that we should be asking, and what are the hard questions that we should be addressing in this, in order to change things. Awareness does nothing to ask questions or address a hard question.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:Later in my post I used the term "Twitter hashtag campaigns", which I'm pretty sure does accurately describe it.
My point still stands, by the way. The campaign alone won't be enough to do more than a little; raise awareness, perhaps, but with limited scope.

I don't think anyone was saying that this was going to change the world. But sharing stories and raising awareness isn't a pointless endeavor. A building is generally made from many small bricks, not one massive one.

However, one needs more than bricks to build a building. You at least need something to seal the bricks together, and, preferably, more structure than just bricks.
It's not pointless, but it's insufficient.

Liriena wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
It is gynocentric, and the willingness of men to come forward regardless is in part due to the MRM and campaigning against gynocentrism and the cultural shift that has occured over the years due to it, especially online.

Okay, I believe you believe that.

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Context such as?

Your "this is gynocentrist" complaint only really has any hope of working if we ignore the fact that all of this is happening in response to the Weinstein scandal.

This will generate more focus on women, encourage more women to come forward, without also providing men as much encouragement. This will mean more women come forward, provoking further gynocentric campaigns, in a loop that ultimately perpetuates misinformation and misunderstandings that leaves men victimized.

If you can prevent sexual assaults just by stopping focusing on women for one goddamn minute and making your language gender neutral, why shouldn't you?

The context isn't "Weinstein" it's "A society absolutely steeped in self-perpetuating gynocentric mentalities, which this is one of."

"No, if we can't ignore men all the time we'd have to concede too much, and we prefer a situation with more abuse, rape, and sexual assault in the world to one where we can't focus on women constantly and have to consider men in our campaigns. Stop telling us we're wrong to do it! It's fine to campaign like this."

Go ahead if you want. Worlds biggest Lobby for rapists, pedophiles, domestic abusers, etc. Remains the same to this day.

Feminism is about women's rights and women's empowerment, and such campaigns MUST be about women.
They MUST be about women because the rabbit hole is far deeper than waht it looks at the first sight, and now there's the chance to deal with it
http://www.newsweek.com/sexual-harassme ... ein-684732
That isn't about rich actresses raped by a rich producer, this is about the root, the main reason, of the lack of women in STEM
Academic source
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12929/epdf


Let me also add that in such case the "what about the men" attitude isn't funny in the slighest (while the thread about Islam being the solution to abuse of women is equally absurd but at least, is somewhat ironical and by so it could be perceived as "funny" by jaded people who have a taste for dark humor)

Chestaan wrote:

Liriena wrote:You know your narrative has gone beyond what's reasonable when you feel the urge to use a campaign in response to Harvey Weinstein to whine "yeah, but what about men?!!"

The point is that nothing is lost by including male victims of sexual violence in the campaign.

Male survivors are already participating, however, so New Edom is just plain wrong... or is pretending not to know this to fit his own narrative.

Chestaan wrote:Targetting sexual violence against women alone is like taking specific steps to stop men from being murdered but refusing to extend the same campaign to women. Sure, men may be the majority of all homicides by a huge amount, but there's zero benefit to excluding female victims from any campaign against murder.

Yeah... but context matters. Hypothetically, if there was a similar twitter campaign after a hate crime towards, say, LGBT people, would you think it fair or reasonable for someone to start a thread to complain that the campaign isn't about straight cis people too?

Chessmistress wrote:Feminism is about women's rights and women's empowerment, and such campaigns MUST be about women.
They MUST be about women because the rabbit hole is far deeper than waht it looks at the first sight, and now there's the chance to deal with it
http://www.newsweek.com/sexual-harassme ... ein-684732
That isn't about rich actresses molested by a rich producer, this is about the root, the main reason, of the lack of women in STEM
Academic source
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12929/epdf


Let me also add that in such case the "what about the men" attitude isn't funny in the slighest (while the thread about Islam being the solution to abuse of women is equally absurd but at least, is somewhat ironical and by so it could be perceived as "funny" by jaded people who have a taste for dark humor)

Are you implying what I think you're implying?

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:We're all aware abuse happens. If this is just to raise awareness that people are sexually harassed, good job, you've contributed nothing. It happens, we know it happens.

It's to raise awareness on how ubiquitous it is. Considering how often harassment is dismissed as being a problem minor in either frequency or intensity, I think this assertion is disingenuous at best.

Proctopeo wrote:However, one needs more than bricks to build a building. You at least need something to seal the bricks together, and, preferably, more structure than just bricks.
It's not pointless, but it's insufficient.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that this hashtag alone was going to solve the problem. Of course it's 'insufficient' on its own. It's a small part of a much larger struggle. Take away every small part of a larger struggle, though, and you end up with a very small solution.

Proctopeo wrote:

Chessmistress wrote:Feminism is about women's rights and women's empowerment, and such campaigns MUST be about women.
They MUST be about women because the rabbit hole is far deeper than waht it looks at the first sight, and now there's the chance to deal with it
http://www.newsweek.com/sexual-harassme ... ein-684732
That isn't about rich actresses molested by a rich producer, this is about the root, the main reason, of the lack of women in STEM
Academic source
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12929/epdf


Let me also add that in such case the "what about the men" attitude isn't funny in the slighest (while the thread about Islam being the solution to abuse of women is equally absurd but at least, is somewhat ironical and by so it could be perceived as "funny" by jaded people who have a taste for dark humor)

Are you implying what I think you're implying?

About which part?

Conserative Morality wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:Awareness is only worth it if the person doing the awareness is also trying to open dialogue.

If the dialogue is not started, all you're really trying to do is join in with the crowd so other people can rubberneck at you.

Awareness is the first step to opening dialogue. People aren't generally going online and sharing deeply personal stories about being abused or harassed for personal attention.

I disagree. All you're doing is joining in the crowd for rubbernecking points. And that's all that these people are doing, going online and sharing deeply personal stories about being abused or harassed for personal attention with this hashtag campaign. I don't need to know you've been harassed or assaulted, that gives me no further insight. I need to know what your thoughts are on the matter, because that's what provides insight and helps educate others.

Awareness by itself does nothing to open dialogue, it's only a tool to open dialogue, but it won't open dialogues in and of itself. Anyone who thinks just planting a hashtag is enough is lying to themselves.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:However, one needs more than bricks to build a building. You at least need something to seal the bricks together, and, preferably, more structure than just bricks.
It's not pointless, but it's insufficient.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that this hashtag alone was going to solve the problem. Of course it's 'insufficient' on its own. It's a small part of a much larger struggle. Take away every small part of a larger struggle, though, and you end up with a very small solution.

I'll wait for an action to be taken before I say anything else on this matter.

Chessmistress wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:Are you implying what I think you're implying?

About which part?

Specifically the last part, especially the part outside of parentheses. But "in general" works as well.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:We're all aware abuse happens. If this is just to raise awareness that people are sexually harassed, good job, you've contributed nothing. It happens, we know it happens.

It's to raise awareness on how ubiquitous it is. Considering how often harassment is dismissed as being a problem minor in either frequency or intensity, I think this assertion is disingenuous at best.

Proctopeo wrote:However, one needs more than bricks to build a building. You at least need something to seal the bricks together, and, preferably, more structure than just bricks.
It's not pointless, but it's insufficient.

I don't think anyone was suggesting that this hashtag alone was going to solve the problem. Of course it's 'insufficient' on its own. It's a small part of a much larger struggle. Take away every small part of a larger struggle, though, and you end up with a very small solution.

Yea, it is ubiquitous. Again, so what?

Ostroeuropa wrote:So I checked the MRM reddit. Comments on it are mostly reporting negative reactions from gynocentrists to men posting it on facebook, as well as most of them just going along with it and posting it.

Question... how do you know when to assign the "gynocentrist" label?

Also... Oh dear, the meninists of reddit found exactly what they were looking for. I'm sure there is no confirmation bias at play here.

Snark asides though, provided all these anecdotes on reddit are true, it does suck that some male survivors' stories are not being treated fairly.

Liriena wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:So I checked the MRM reddit. Comments on it are mostly reporting negative reactions from gynocentrists to men posting it on facebook, as well as most of them just going along with it and posting it.

Question... how do you know when to assign the "gynocentrist" label?

Also... Oh dear, the meninists of reddit found exactly what they were looking for. I'm sure there is no confirmation bias at play here.

Snark asides though, provided all these anecdotes on reddit are true, it does suck that some male survivors' stories are not being treated fairly.

Liriena wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:So I checked the MRM reddit. Comments on it are mostly reporting negative reactions from gynocentrists to men posting it on facebook, as well as most of them just going along with it and posting it.

Question... how do you know when to assign the "gynocentrist" label?

Also... Oh dear, the meninists of reddit found exactly what they were looking for. I'm sure there is no confirmation bias at play here.

Snark asides though, provided all these anecdotes on reddit are true, it does suck that some male survivors' stories are not being treated fairly.

If a campaign on an issue is slated as a womens issue where it effects both men and women would be one.

Also, you're using the term meninist, suggesting you're either baiting, or don't know what you're talking about. I'm sure you wouldn't bait, so let me educate you.

Meninism is a parody of feminism and its sexist behavior, taking the structure of their arguments and statements and reversing the genders. Quotes are also used.
The mens rights movement is the actual movement. Meninism is the parody.

I can understand it may be shocking for you to be told the difference, if you think feminism is legitimate, you may well see meninism as a mirror to it, with similar justifications and such, but no, it is a parody.

Unless you're baiting. In which case, why would you bait by pretending to be ignorant? That's strange.

Proctopeo wrote:

Liriena wrote:Question... how do you know when to assign the "gynocentrist" label?

Also... Oh dear, the meninists of reddit found exactly what they were looking for. I'm sure there is no confirmation bias at play here.

Snark asides though, provided all these anecdotes on reddit are true, it does suck that some male survivors' stories are not being treated fairly.

Addressed.

Proctopeo wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:

Did you see my reference to the lack of women in STEM and to how that's rooted in such misogynistic practices?
Did you read the Newsweek article?

When sexual harassment of a man happen, then it's a bad thing and it shouldn't happen, but it isn't a systemic issue keeping men out of STEM or other important fields.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:

Conserative Morality wrote:It's to raise awareness on how ubiquitous it is. Considering how often harassment is dismissed as being a problem minor in either frequency or intensity, I think this assertion is disingenuous at best.
I don't think anyone was suggesting that this hashtag alone was going to solve the problem. Of course it's 'insufficient' on its own. It's a small part of a much larger struggle. Take away every small part of a larger struggle, though, and you end up with a very small solution.

Yea, it is ubiquitous. Again, so what?

So how many people are actually aware of that. I mean viscerally aware. Sure they may know statistics, but this type of opening a dialogue puts a face to those numbers. Kinda like how homosexuals coming out of the closet alone was not enough, but them doing so put a face to a movement.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Liriena wrote:Okay, I believe you believe that.


Your "this is gynocentrist" complaint only really has any hope of working if we ignore the fact that all of this is happening in response to the Weinstein scandal.

This will generate more focus on women, encourage more women to come forward, without also providing men as much encouragement. This will mean more women come forward, provoking further gynocentric campaigns, in a loop that ultimately perpetuates misinformation and misunderstandings that leaves men victimized.

If you can prevent sexual assaults just by stopping focusing on women for one goddamn minute and making your language gender neutral, why shouldn't you?

The context isn't "Weinstein" it's "A society absolutely steeped in self-perpetuating gynocentric mentalities, which this is one of."

And now you're openly disregarding the context in favor of your narrative. Sad.

Ostroeuropa wrote:"No, if we can't ignore men all the time we'd have to concede too much, and we prefer a situation with more abuse, rape, and sexual assault in the world to one where we can't focus on women constantly and have to consider men in our campaigns. Stop telling us we're wrong to do it! It's fine to campaign like this."

Who said this? Are they a real person, or just the condensed embodiment of your personal resentments and prejudices?

Ostroeuropa wrote:Go ahead if you want. Worlds biggest Lobby for rapists, pedophiles, domestic abusers, etc. Remains the same to this day.

Are you talking to me or to the unnamed source of that quote? Because if you are talking to the unnamed source of that quote... you should probably contact them directly, rather than vomiting your disdain for them all over me.

Chessmistress wrote:Feminism is about women's rights and women's empowerment, and such campaigns MUST be about women.
They MUST be about women because the rabbit hole is far deeper than waht it looks at the first sight, and now there's the chance to deal with it
http://www.newsweek.com/sexual-harassme ... ein-684732
That isn't about rich actresses raped by a rich producer, this is about the root, the main reason, of the lack of women in STEM
Academic source
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1 ... 12929/epdf


Let me also add that in such case the "what about the men" attitude isn't funny in the slighest (while the thread about Islam being the solution to abuse of women is equally absurd but at least, is somewhat ironical and by so it could be perceived as "funny" by jaded people who have a taste for dark humor)

I love dark humor.