NationStates

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Liriena wrote:And yet men are speaking out. Your narrative, in this case, is pure fiction.

They're speaking out in large part because of years of effort from the MRM to do this kind of thing. The feminist movement has done comparatively nothing.

Yeah, sure, baselessly take credit. If you can't convincingly complain that this is a gynocentrist ploy, turn it into a meninist victory.

Ostroeuropa wrote:

Liriena wrote:Seriously. I mean, when we have threads about homophobia, I don't immediately scream "yeah, but what about biphobia among gay men, huh?". Its a legitimate problem alright, but I don't have this weird urge to bring it up to undermine others.

There isn't a substantial and powerful section of the LGBT lobby that adamantly denies biphobia is a thing, and fudges research to discriminate against bi people.
False comparison.

I see you only start to care about context when it suits you. Cool.

Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

Luminesa wrote:Proving your own point, you said a lot of nothing with quite a lot of words.

'Quite a lot of words'? Jesus, Lumi. I didn't use many words and I gave you a pretty simple point. Do I need to express in simpler terms for you?

Liriena wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
They're speaking out in large part because of years of effort from the MRM to do this kind of thing. The feminist movement has done comparatively nothing.

Yeah, sure, baselessly take credit. If you can't convincingly complain that this is a gynocentrist ploy, turn it into a meninist victory.

It is gynocentric, and the willingness of men to come forward regardless is in part due to the MRM and campaigning against gynocentrism and the cultural shift that has occured over the years due to it, especially online.

Liriena wrote:

Ostroeuropa wrote:
There isn't a substantial and powerful section of the LGBT lobby that adamantly denies biphobia is a thing, and fudges research to discriminate against bi people.
False comparison.

I see you only start to care about context when it suits you. Cool.

Context such as?

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

This is true, but there's also a few reports of hostility to men doing so.
There's also the risk that the media reports on this as "Womens tweets" and such, and just entirely ignores that aspect, helped in that endeavor by the organizers and their gynocentric focus.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Luminesa wrote:

Things past incarnations of Lumi have probably said:

"Writing about it doesn't do anything! Books don't matter! If you aren't talking to people, what's the point?"

"Radio? What kind of 'communication' is that? How's that going to help anything? If it's not in the newspapers, who's it going to reach?"

"TV? That's child's play. You can't address real problems through visual media!"

Gosh, Lumi, you’re such an ancient bag of bones, get with the times. You’re even more regressive than the guy who knew everything you were gonna say before you actually said it! Amazing!

Luminesa wrote:Gosh, Lumi, you’re such an ancient bag of bones, get with the times. You’re even more regressive than the guy who knew everything you were gonna say before you actually said it! Amazing!

Not surprising that you didn't understand my post. Ah, well.

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

But that's injurious to the narrative that this is all about oppressing men, so I presume we're not going to be allowed to talk about that.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Luminesa wrote:Proving your own point, you said a lot of nothing with quite a lot of words.

'Quite a lot of words'? Jesus, Lumi. I didn't use many words and I gave you a pretty simple point. Do I need to express in simpler terms for you?

#LumiHatesTechnologyAndIsProbablyReallyDumb

There you go. Put it all over Twitter, spread the word about this terrible entity that lurks NationStates.

I have to side with Lumi here - a Twitter hashtag alone will do little. Backing it up with action, however, will do far more.
However, Twitter hashtag campaigns are very good in one aspect: if they backfire, the main negative consequence is that the people who started it are quite embarrassed. If an action backfires, you might make a new problem or worsen the one you tried to solve, making a campaign on Twitter much safer than taking action.

Well, this is a little bit like "white people share if you've been a victim of racism" campaign, but meh. It's not that unusual.

Men should just stand up and say #MeToo if they've been victims of rape, sexual assault, or sexual harassment. And fuck people who try to shout them down. Also, if there were a #MeTooRacism campaign for white people victimized by racism, I would encourage black people to stand up and say #MeTooRacism as well for the same reason.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Luminesa wrote:Gosh, Lumi, you’re such an ancient bag of bones, get with the times. You’re even more regressive than the guy who knew everything you were gonna say before you actually said it! Amazing!

Not surprising that you didn't understand my post. Ah, well.

#LumiIsNotSmarterThanAFifthGrader

I hope Jeff Foxworthy doesn’t get me for copyright.

Vassenor wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

But that's injurious to the narrative that this is all about oppressing men, so I presume we're not going to be allowed to talk about that.

It is not all about oppressing men, it is merely an expression of a dynamic that oppresses men.

Again, you seem unwilling to confront the notion that we are not accusing feminists of conspiracy, merely being wrongheaded in how they go about these things.
The intent does not matter, the results remain the same.
Willful ignorance and refusal to examine their ideology honestly is about the most you can accuse them of, not conspiracy.

This will generate more focus on women, encourage more women to come forward, without also providing men as much encouragement. This will mean more women come forward, provoking further gynocentric campaigns, in a loop that ultimately perpetuates misinformation and misunderstandings that leaves men victimized.

If you can prevent sexual assaults just by stopping focusing on women for one goddamn minute and making your language gender neutral, why shouldn't you?
Because it'd go against feminist dogma to admit that is the case.
For feminists who aren't like that, we're cool. I'm told they exist, yet nary can find one.

Vassenor wrote:

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Egalitarian here. A woman also. Since this campaign is an initiative stemming from the Weinstein cases, I don't think it's about only saving or protecting women. In point of fact, I have seen a large number of men using the hashtag too in social media, like Facebook and IG. And been encouraged by others, including women, to break the silence and speak up about their sexual harassment experiences.

But that's injurious to the narrative that this is all about oppressing men, so I presume we're not going to be allowed to talk about that.

Eh, I get Edom's worry but as men are also using the tag and what I've personally seen is empathy, I don't see a reason to be alarmed.

That being said, sexual assault and rape are topics in which men can be underrepresented because there is a narrative purported by some that a man can't be raped by a woman.

Proctopeo wrote:I have to side with Lumi here - a Twitter hashtag alone will do little. Backing it up with action, however, will do far more.
However, Twitter hashtag campaigns are very good in one aspect: if they backfire, the main negative consequence is that the people who started it are quite embarrassed. If an action backfires, you might make a new problem or worsen the one you tried to solve, making a campaign on Twitter much safer than taking action.

The point of this particular hashtag is to share experiences - to let it be known that there are people you know who've experienced this kind of shit. If it was just a hashtag, you'd have a point. But it's not. It's a tag to mark the ubiquity of such personal stories in the wake of a scandal.

Liriena wrote:You know your narrative has gone beyond what's reasonable when you feel the urge to use a campaign in response to Harvey Weinstein to whine "yeah, but what about men?!!"

The point is that nothing is lost by including male victims of sexual violence in the campaign. Targetting sexual violence against women alone is like taking specific steps to stop men from being murdered but refusing to extend the same campaign to women. Sure, men may be the majority of all homicides by a huge amount, but there's zero benefit to excluding female victims from any campaign against murder.

As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Right, because being unaware of a subject makes it infinitely easier to address. Awareness is worthless.

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Seems to me that the campaign is a way to open dialogue.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:I have to side with Lumi here - a Twitter hashtag alone will do little. Backing it up with action, however, will do far more.
However, Twitter hashtag campaigns are very good in one aspect: if they backfire, the main negative consequence is that the people who started it are quite embarrassed. If an action backfires, you might make a new problem or worsen the one you tried to solve, making a campaign on Twitter much safer than taking action.

The point of this particular hashtag is to share experiences - to let it be known that there are people you know who've experienced this kind of shit. If it was just a hashtag, you'd have a point. But it's not. It's a tag to mark the ubiquity of such personal stories in the wake of a scandal.

Later in my post I used the term "Twitter hashtag campaigns", which I'm pretty sure does accurately describe it.
My point still stands, by the way. The campaign alone won't be enough to do more than a little; raise awareness, perhaps, but with limited scope.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Proctopeo wrote:I have to side with Lumi here - a Twitter hashtag alone will do little. Backing it up with action, however, will do far more.
However, Twitter hashtag campaigns are very good in one aspect: if they backfire, the main negative consequence is that the people who started it are quite embarrassed. If an action backfires, you might make a new problem or worsen the one you tried to solve, making a campaign on Twitter much safer than taking action.

The point of this particular hashtag is to share experiences - to let it be known that there are people you know who've experienced this kind of shit. If it was just a hashtag, you'd have a point. But it's not. It's a tag to mark the ubiquity of such personal stories in the wake of a scandal.

You could go on Facebook and do the exact same thing with no 140-character limit. Twitter handles are simply empty words that are inaccurate and tell nothing about the intricacies of abuse, which is what needs to be addressed. We know abuse exists, and that it exists very much among people we know. This isn’t news. What would be truly revolutionary would be something that can help pull men and women out of the cycle of abuse.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Right, because being unaware of a subject makes it infinitely easier to address. Awareness is worthless.

Awareness is only worth it if the person doing the awareness is also trying to open dialogue.

If the dialogue is not started, all you're really trying to do is join in with the crowd so other people can rubberneck at you.

Neutraligon wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Seems to me that the campaign is a way to open dialogue.

Open dialogue in a gynocentric way.
To frame a conversation in such a way as to exclude a large number of the victims. Victims who would benefit more from the awareness raising, because of previous campaigns just like this one being ubiquitous.

Conserative Morality wrote:

Soldati Senza Confini wrote:As far as I know, the #metoo campaign is a pointless exercise in awareness.

Awareness is a form of doing nothing. It opens no dialogue to the conversation that needs to be had. It's just a form of saying "yea, I want you to look. I don't really care about the issue to open up a conversation about it, but I am happy if you just look".

In other words, without opening dialogue and discussion on the issue of sexual assault and how it affects everyone, I am afraid all this campaign is doing is giving an opportunity for navel gazers to navel gaze.

Right, because being unaware of a subject makes it infinitely easier to address. Awareness is worthless.

People are already aware of abuse though. I think you’ve been missing that in the last few posts.

#TheSearchForProperContext

Proctopeo wrote:Later in my post I used the term "Twitter hashtag campaigns", which I'm pretty sure does accurately describe it.
My point still stands, by the way. The campaign alone won't be enough to do more than a little; raise awareness, perhaps, but with limited scope.

I don't think anyone was saying that this was going to change the world. But sharing stories and raising awareness isn't a pointless endeavor. A building is generally made from many small bricks, not one massive one.