Authoritarians, Assemble!

[Neutraligon]

It is an interesting experience to live in China and see how the decency of the populace shapes your day to day experience more than the authoritarianism of the government. I do think the media in the West often paints China as a worse place than it really is, and a lot of Americans fear it more than there is any reason to. A lot of people are able to have decent lives there. Some run into serious problems, if they happen to be too much at odds with the social norms and the political order, but a lot of people do OK.

And even when you do have to deal with the authorities, they're nosy, but they aren't vicious unless you challenge them. The Shanghai police caught me teaching at a school that wasn't authorized to have foreign teachers. I got brought into a police station and questioned, but they were polite and they let me go back to my apartment when they were done asking questions. I couldn't teach at that school anymore, obviously, but I wasn't arrested or deported. When I went back to visit China again 9 years later, they didn't deny my visa. They just wanted to stick their noses in our business and charge my employer some fines.

I think there are things the West could learn from China, but mostly social and cultural things rather than political ones. In particular, family-oriented attitudes, appreciation for quality food, health-conscious habits like the way a lot of people will do tai-chi or kick around shuttlecocks in a park before they go to work... It's not the easiest thing when you've got so many people jammed together in one country and competing for jobs, but most Chinese are conscientious about taking care of themselves so they're ready to take on the day's challenges. I think Americans would be in a much better place if we paid as much attention to taking care of ourselves.

The odd thing is that I entirely agree that China has alot of cultural values that we could learn from, I just find it annoying when those who romanticize their politics fail to distinguish the two.

I was only in China for a couple of months, but wow there is a lot for us to learn from them. I loved those little parks that where full with people doing Tai Chi in the morning or a night.

[Sovaal]

Nah, primitive village is of true Rome, none of those decadent concrete monuments or foriegn gods.

Try educating yourself about these things before saying ignorant nonsense.

Is of joke, try making comments that actually add to the discussion.

That or to not be as offended.

[Sovaal]

You don't love other's rights to have freedom and happiness if you are an authoritarian. Try harder.

If you can't be happy without the state guaranteeing preference of individual rights over welfare and stability of the society it speaks about you and not the society.
90%+ of world's population has and wants much less individual rights than westerners do and they're are happier than westerners. You've gotta leave your libertarian thought bubble.

Did you also know that 85.97625% of statistics without a source are made up?

[Pilarcraft]

If you can't be happy without the state guaranteeing preference of individual rights over welfare and stability of the society it speaks about you and not the society.
90%+ of world's population has and wants much less individual rights than westerners do and they're are happier than westerners. You've gotta leave your libertarian thought bubble.

Did you also know that 85.97625% of statistics without a source are made up?

sometimes I wish NS forum had a thumbs-up system lmao.

[USS Monitor]

It is an interesting experience to live in China and see how the decency of the populace shapes your day to day experience more than the authoritarianism of the government. I do think the media in the West often paints China as a worse place than it really is, and a lot of Americans fear it more than there is any reason to. A lot of people are able to have decent lives there. Some run into serious problems, if they happen to be too much at odds with the social norms and the political order, but a lot of people do OK.

And even when you do have to deal with the authorities, they're nosy, but they aren't vicious unless you challenge them. The Shanghai police caught me teaching at a school that wasn't authorized to have foreign teachers. I got brought into a police station and questioned, but they were polite and they let me go back to my apartment when they were done asking questions. I couldn't teach at that school anymore, obviously, but I wasn't arrested or deported. When I went back to visit China again 9 years later, they didn't deny my visa. They just wanted to stick their noses in our business and charge my employer some fines.

I think there are things the West could learn from China, but mostly social and cultural things rather than political ones. In particular, family-oriented attitudes, appreciation for quality food, health-conscious habits like the way a lot of people will do tai-chi or kick around shuttlecocks in a park before they go to work... It's not the easiest thing when you've got so many people jammed together in one country and competing for jobs, but most Chinese are conscientious about taking care of themselves so they're ready to take on the day's challenges. I think Americans would be in a much better place if we paid as much attention to taking care of ourselves.

The odd thing is that I entirely agree that China has alot of cultural values that we could learn from, I just find it annoying when those who romanticize their politics fail to distinguish the two.

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

If you can't be happy without the state guaranteeing preference of individual rights over welfare and stability of the society it speaks about you and not the society.
90%+ of world's population has and wants much less individual rights than westerners do and they're are happier than westerners. You've gotta leave your libertarian thought bubble.

Did you also know that 85.97625% of statistics without a source are made up?

Sir Humphrey: "Statistics? You can prove anything with statistics."
Jim Hacker: "Including the truth!"
Humphrey: "Yes...NO!"

[Lancaster of Wessex]

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

That isn't an apt comparison IMHO. Gun massacres are not inherent in the political system (one could argue the 2nd Amendment does make it such, but it's not implicitly so). Chinese repression of rights and freedoms IS implicit, IS an inherent part of the system. And people know better than to speak up, because even if they wanted to, they know they're going to be on the receiving end of some serious repercussions. I will never give China a pass on this, ever.

[Sovaal]

The odd thing is that I entirely agree that China has alot of cultural values that we could learn from, I just find it annoying when those who romanticize their politics fail to distinguish the two.

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

Really it mostly seems to be about how people receive information about a country. Get told on the news constantly that a certain place is a bad, anti-our values hellhole, and the whole place and every aspect of it begin to be seen in a negative light.

[Pasong Tirad]

The odd thing is that I entirely agree that China has alot of cultural values that we could learn from, I just find it annoying when those who romanticize their politics fail to distinguish the two.

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

To add, China's foreign policy also makes it pretty difficult to see the Mainland with rose colored glasses, especially if you're on the receiving end of their imperialist aspirations. Claiming territory based off of blatantly false evidence and providing "gifts" (read: loans) with high interest rates for infrastructure projects, to name a few. So, you'd excuse me if I also believe that, yeah, I have no doubt that most of the Mainland Chinese are good people, but that doesn't excuse the many dubious actions of the CPC.

[Shikihara]

If he could, he'd try.

And to United Muscovite Nations, I posed this (he may not have seen):

And what do you do with those who aren't moral enough in your mind? Beat them? Imprison them? Execute them? Is that showing Christ's love and forgiveness?

Filially correct them, but if it is a serious enough offence, the lash. I'd accept such punishment for myself, and it's forgiving because all sins are worthy of death.

The fact that there's people who unironically want to bring back lashing makes me cringe a little.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Filially correct them, but if it is a serious enough offence, the lash. I'd accept such punishment for myself, and it's forgiving because all sins are worthy of death.

The fact that there's people who unironically want to bring back lashing makes me cringe a little.

Didn't you know true Christianity can only exist when you've purged and destroyed and beaten all unbelievers and sinners? That's love and forgiveness at work!

[USS Monitor]

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

That isn't an apt comparison IMHO. Gun massacres are not inherent in the political system (one could argue the 2nd Amendment does make it such, but it's not implicitly so). Chinese repression of rights and freedoms IS implicit, IS an inherent part of the system. And people know better than to speak up, because even if they wanted to, they know they're going to be on the receiving end of some serious repercussions. I will never give China a pass on this, ever.

I was comparing the effect on people's quality of life, not commenting on the source of the problem or the factors that allow it to persist.

Regardless of whether the shootings are caused by our political system, cultural factors, or whatever, they are still a thing that is going on in the US. You've completely missed the point if you're trying to restrict this discussion to the political system only rather than discuss the country as a whole. My point is that China's political issues are not the only thing that defines them as a country. I'm not asking you to pretend the political problems don't exist, just asking you to get some fucking perspective and not make moronic leaps of logic from "China has political problems" to "China is a terrible place to live."

[Shikihara]

The fact that there's people who unironically want to bring back lashing makes me cringe a little.

Didn't you know true Christianity can only exist when you've purged and destroyed and beaten all unbelievers and sinners? That's love and forgiveness at work!

The High Sparrow wasn't meant to be a role model.

[USS Monitor]

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

To add, China's foreign policy also makes it pretty difficult to see the Mainland with rose colored glasses, especially if you're on the receiving end of their imperialist aspirations. Claiming territory based off of blatantly false evidence and providing "gifts" (read: loans) with high interest rates for infrastructure projects, to name a few. So, you'd excuse me if I also believe that, yeah, I have no doubt that most of the Mainland Chinese are good people, but that doesn't excuse the many dubious actions of the CPC.

The current administration admittedly has a stick up their collective asses. The Chinese government was better under Hu Jintao.

[Sovaal]

Didn't you know true Christianity can only exist when you've purged and destroyed and beaten all unbelievers and sinners? That's love and forgiveness at work!

The High Sparrow wasn't meant to be a role model.

But what about the Wildfire part?

[Pilarcraft]

The High Sparrow wasn't meant to be a role model.

But what about the Wildfire part?

that comes later.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

That isn't an apt comparison IMHO. Gun massacres are not inherent in the political system (one could argue the 2nd Amendment does make it such, but it's not implicitly so). Chinese repression of rights and freedoms IS implicit, IS an inherent part of the system. And people know better than to speak up, because even if they wanted to, they know they're going to be on the receiving end of some serious repercussions. I will never give China a pass on this, ever.

I was comparing the effect on people's quality of life, not commenting on the source of the problem or the factors that allow it to persist.

Regardless of whether the shootings are caused by our political system, cultural factors, or whatever, they are still a thing that is going on in the US. You've completely missed the point if you're trying to restrict this discussion to the political system only rather than discuss the country as a whole. My point is that China's political issues are not the only thing that defines them as a country. I'm not asking you to pretend the political problems don't exist, just asking you to get some fucking perspective and not make moronic leaps of logic from "China has political problems" to "China is a terrible place to live."

I still think it's a terrible place to live simply due to the fact that it allows these things to occur. I like my moronic logic and my fucking perspective, thank you very much.

[Romanum Dominium]

The odd thing is that I entirely agree that China has alot of cultural values that we could learn from, I just find it annoying when those who romanticize their politics fail to distinguish the two.

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

People conflate the cultures and governments of a lot of countries, including those of the US. I wish more people were able to separate the three. For example, one could Chinese culture and people while still disliking the Chinese government.

[Genivaria]

People who demonize China also conflate the two, which sometimes makes it necessary to defend China as a whole. The human rights abuses really suck for the people on the receiving end of them, but they're like mass shootings in the US. It's not something that shapes most people's day-to-day life.

People conflate the cultures and governments of a lot of countries, including those of the US. I wish more people were able to separate the three. For example, one could Chinese culture and people while still disliking the Chinese government.

I believe that is called Taiwan.

[Pasong Tirad]

People conflate the cultures and governments of a lot of countries, including those of the US. I wish more people were able to separate the three. For example, one could Chinese culture and people while still disliking the Chinese government.

I believe that is called Taiwan.

Oh, Real China? I love Real China.

Unless they want to be an independent Taiwan, in which case Taiwan Number One.

[Genivaria]

I believe that is called Taiwan.

Oh, Real China? I love Real China.

Unless they want to be an independent Taiwan, in which case Taiwan Number One.

Might sadly be inevitable at this point.

[Atheus]

What are some advantages of living in an authoritarian State versus a totalitarian State?
The authoritarian State would content itself with having strict laws to guide society as opposed to trying to control every little detail about society, including soda size, marriage partners, and looking at pornography, to name some examples.

[Dahon]

Authoritarian regimes are not souped-up democracies.

[Kubra]

"It fails to distinguish between ends and means. In conventional thinking, there's no real distinction made between someone who uses violence for liberatory ends, and someone for whom violent repression is an end in itself."
tl;dr the problem isn't political violence in general, but the normative definition of such currently taken.
Er, is that the correct interpretation, trot?

Yes.

Take, for example, the emancipation of slaves during the American Civil War. This was an immensely violent enterprise; in itself it meant the complete destruction of the existing socio-economic system. Slave-owners were mortgaged to the hilt on their slaves. Both they and their creditors were bankrupted. The freeing of slaves amounted to the massive dispossession of billions of dollars (1860 dollars, no less) of wealth.

The actual practice of emancipation required more than just legal pronouncements, but the waging of total war, the ruination of the entire Southern economy, and the deaths of hundreds of thousands on both sides.

But the end result was the abolition of slavery in America, giving millions the basic rights of citizenship.

No need to tell me, I just felt it would be unfair to you if I didn't solicit your input on the matter.

[Kubra]

Oh, Real China? I love Real China.

Unless they want to be an independent Taiwan, in which case Taiwan Number One.

Might sadly be inevitable at this point.

For as long as Taiwan postures that it is the legitimate government of the whole of mainland China the CPC is satisfied and will not invade
Which is, well, it's the weirdest state of affairs. "if you stop believing we're at war we will war u."