Authoritarians, Assemble!

[United States of Red Dawn]

Yes! Some of us need to be shielded from social engineering and totalitarians on the Left. Trump is a sort of authoritarian, but can't begin to match their willingness to dictate to, some, others. In liberal democracies there is always somebody who is on the outside because they don't follow the correct line of thinking.

In Liberal Democracy, most politicians take power to change things. And most people who want to change things are busy-bodies. Most liberal democracies engender leaders who at least nominally "care" about their people and in practice caring about people under you usually means a host of petty tyrannies for "their sake". Autocrats rarely seek power to change things, they seek it for it's own sake and I have to be honest. I prefer the naked reality of it. Also, in my experience living under authoritarian regimes engenders a culture of distrust and disobedience of government, sure some people swallow the party line hook and sinker, but most people work around the rules and hold some degree of cynicism for what they hear.

Give me a benign and indifferent autocrat any day over a nagging nanny with power.

That said, give me a benign and indifferent democracy any day over any kind of autocrat. Political freedom is the freedom I care about least, but it is still one I care about.

I think that's what the U.S. used to be. I believe in things like social safety nets, but not based on grievances by birth. Right Libertarianism would be preferable to me with a small amount of tweaking.

[Aillyria]

I believe that democracy is unnatural. I think that the ideal socioeconomic structure of society is a neofeudalist and totalitarian one similar to "1984", in which an upper class governs the country and enjoys vast privileges while commanding the masses, who are considered as expendable. Not kidding. I am absolutely serious on this. It would be so much better if we finally outgrew the idea that equality is the ideal to be striven towards. Equality means chaos and anarchy. Only a strict order and a system in which the greater good is valued more than the wishes of the individual allows a society to function properly.

For the start: why the hell should children of workers go to grammar school? Yes, some of them are intelligent, but those who work with their hands should always be in the majority, being commanded by a hereditary elite of those who work with their brains, e.g. the intelligentia. Every person's profession should be decided upon at birth if possible. No more year-long orientation courses in school! Children of workers should be taught to follow orders and to use their strength and the skill in their hands while children of academics should be prepared to become leaders from kindergarden onwards.

I hope to God you're joking. The 1984 model is doing North Korea wonders, you should go live there.

[USS Monitor]

Not an Authoritarian, indeed the precise opposite.

However... I must admit. Having now lived under an authoritarian regime... Eh, I don't have a lot of problems with it. As long as the Authority remains chiefly concerned securing their own authority rather than meddling with it's people, I don't really mind. I honestly feel freer in China most days than I did in Canada.

I had a similar feeling about living in China vs. living in the US, but I think part of that is just because being a foreigner makes you take things less personally. The language barrier and being a foreigner meant I didn't follow politics as closely when I lived in China. Being a foreigner also means that the locals don't expect the same level of conformity from you as they would from one of their own.

So I think it's less evidence in favor of authoritarianism and more evidence that it's not healthy to spend too much time obsessing over politics. In Western democracies, simply turning off your TV and not reading the news for a few weeks goes a long way to cure that feeling of the government being in your business.

[Pilarcraft]

I believe that democracy is unnatural. I think that the ideal socioeconomic structure of society is a neofeudalist and totalitarian one similar to "1984", in which an upper class governs the country and enjoys vast privileges while commanding the masses, who are considered as expendable. Not kidding. I am absolutely serious on this. It would be so much better if we finally outgrew the idea that equality is the ideal to be striven towards. Equality means chaos and anarchy. Only a strict order and a system in which the greater good is valued more than the wishes of the individual allows a society to function properly.

For the start: why the hell should children of workers go to grammar school? Yes, some of them are intelligent, but those who work with their hands should always be in the majority, being commanded by a hereditary elite of those who work with their brains, e.g. the intelligentia. Every person's profession should be decided upon at birth if possible. No more year-long orientation courses in school! Children of workers should be taught to follow orders and to use their strength and the skill in their hands while children of academics should be prepared to become leaders from kindergarden onwards.

I hope to God you're joking. The 1984 model is doing North Korea wonders, you should go live there.

this might be a repeated and hollow argument, but frankly, it is my experience that very few exceptions (normally due to cultural romanticization of 'the good old days') aside, the only people who really promote for Authoritarianism are those who already live in relatively liberal, democratic, and arguably free nations. This is why I can't take the average European Authoritarian seriously. most of them have absolutely no idea what it means to live in an authoritarian nation, meaningless statistics aside.
Like the source of the post I quoted. There is no freaking way a person who's lived in (or even heard of the state of life in) a totalitarian state would honestly and unironically want something like that established.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I hope to God you're joking. The 1984 model is doing North Korea wonders, you should go live there.

this might be a repeated and hollow argument, but frankly, it is my experience that very few exceptions (normally due to cultural romanticization of 'the good old days') aside, the only people who really promote for Authoritarianism are those who already live in relatively liberal, democratic, and arguably free nations. This is why I can't take the average European Authoritarian seriously. most of them have absolutely no idea what it means to live in an authoritarian nation, meaningless statistics aside.
Like the source of the post I quoted. There is no freaking way a person who's lived in (or even heard of the state of life in) a totalitarian state would honestly and unironically want something like that established.

It's in your experience because you probably only really interact with people in liberal and democratic nations. We've already had someone living in China express his support for the Chinese government, and I know several people both on and off this forum from countries most here would call authoritarian who support their governments. Generally, as long as authoritarian governments can deliver a better standard of living, they will continue to have mass popular support, and polling in authoritarian and formerly authoritarian countries supports this notion.

It's also a very condescending post, because you could apply it to anyone who wants to change what their country is like, including democracy activists in authoritarian countries. It's a way to shut down argument without actually having to address the principles of people who support authoritarianism.

[Pilarcraft]

this might be a repeated and hollow argument, but frankly, it is my experience that very few exceptions (normally due to cultural romanticization of 'the good old days') aside, the only people who really promote for Authoritarianism are those who already live in relatively liberal, democratic, and arguably free nations. This is why I can't take the average European Authoritarian seriously. most of them have absolutely no idea what it means to live in an authoritarian nation, meaningless statistics aside.
Like the source of the post I quoted. There is no freaking way a person who's lived in (or even heard of the state of life in) a totalitarian state would honestly and unironically want something like that established.

It's in your experience because you probably only really interact with people in liberal and democratic nations. We've already had someone living in China express his support for the Chinese government, and I know several people both on and off this forum from countries most here would call authoritarian who support their governments. Generally, as long as authoritarian governments can deliver a better standard of living, they will continue to have mass popular support, and polling in authoritarian and formerly authoritarian countries supports this notion.

It's also a very condescending post, because you could apply it to anyone who wants to change what their country is like, including democracy activists in authoritarian countries. It's a way to shut down argument without actually having to address the principles of people who support authoritarianism.

I do agree that it's a very hollow argument (personally I would be insulted if someone used it against me)

[Trotskylvania]

I'm sure is very comforting to the victims that boot stepping on them has been sanctioned by a constitution.

You haven't proven him wrong, you just spewed pathos at him. If they're not doing anything wrong than boot stepping (nice totally unbiased an non-nebulous phrease there) them has been PROHIBITED by the constitution.

I'm not a pathos kind of guy. In the post literally right above you, I implicitly endorsed total war in the cause of emancipation.

What I am criticizing is of course the political virtue signalling of liberals of all kinds (yes, that means conservatives too. Modern conservatism is just liberalism shocked at the world that liberalism has built, like Victor Frankenstein's revulsion to the creature he created). They say they are against repression, and then twists themselves into knots to pretend that the repression they endorse isn't really repression.

See every defense of private property in history, which amounts to endorsing the continued violent repression of to defend property that was violently expropriated from its original possessors.

[Aillyria]

It's in your experience because you probably only really interact with people in liberal and democratic nations. We've already had someone living in China express his support for the Chinese government, and I know several people both on and off this forum from countries most here would call authoritarian who support their governments. Generally, as long as authoritarian governments can deliver a better standard of living, they will continue to have mass popular support, and polling in authoritarian and formerly authoritarian countries supports this notion.

It's also a very condescending post, because you could apply it to anyone who wants to change what their country is like, including democracy activists in authoritarian countries. It's a way to shut down argument without actually having to address the principles of people who support authoritarianism.

I do agree that it's a very hollow argument (personally I would be insulted if someone used it against me)

I can see your point though, even though it had some holes its presentation. Most authoritarians in the West, myself included, view our culture as being too laxed, too tolerant....and if you look at all the nutjobs here you can't really say we're wrong.

[Pilarcraft]

I do agree that it's a very hollow argument (personally I would be insulted if someone used it against me)

I can see your point though, even though it had some holes its presentation. Most authoritarians in the West, myself included, view our culture as being too laxed, too tolerant....and if you look at all the nutjobs here you can't really say we're wrong.

As much as I hate authoritarianism of any kind, I can see the appeal Meritocracy might have for many. It's not those Authoritarians that I blame.
but when I see people promoting literal 1984 type totalitarianism, and when I see people defend Stalin, of all people (and I've seen 'woke' leftists go so far as to say "ok so stalin was antisemitic and had homophobic laws but maaaaaaaaybe they deserved it?" (Of course, they do condemn most of the West for its semi-homophobic laws in the same era), or even worse, the DPRK, I tend to disagree with you.
I can really say some of them are wrong.

[United Muscovite Nations]

I can see your point though, even though it had some holes its presentation. Most authoritarians in the West, myself included, view our culture as being too laxed, too tolerant....and if you look at all the nutjobs here you can't really say we're wrong.

As much as I hate authoritarianism of any kind, I can see the appeal Meritocracy might have for many. It's not those Authoritarians that I blame.
but when I see people promoting literal 1984 type totalitarianism, and when I see people defend Stalin, of all people (and I've seen 'woke' leftists go so far as to say "ok so stalin was antisemitic and had homophobic laws but maaaaaaaaybe they deserved it?" (Of course, they do condemn most of the West for its semi-homophobic laws in the same era), or even worse, the DPRK, I tend to disagree with you.
I can really say some of them are wrong.

There's nothing wrong with laws restricting homosexuality, or even certain Jewish practices (specifically, the use of certain passages from the Talmud).

[The Merchant Republics]

Not an Authoritarian, indeed the precise opposite.

However... I must admit. Having now lived under an authoritarian regime... Eh, I don't have a lot of problems with it. As long as the Authority remains chiefly concerned securing their own authority rather than meddling with it's people, I don't really mind. I honestly feel freer in China most days than I did in Canada.

I had a similar feeling about living in China vs. living in the US, but I think part of that is just because being a foreigner makes you take things less personally. The language barrier and being a foreigner meant I didn't follow politics as closely when I lived in China. Being a foreigner also means that the locals don't expect the same level of conformity from you as they would from one of their own.

So I think it's less evidence in favor of authoritarianism and more evidence that it's not healthy to spend too much time obsessing over politics. In Western democracies, simply turning off your TV and not reading the news for a few weeks goes a long way to cure that feeling of the government being in your business.

You might be very right about that.

Yes, I think being a foreigner gives you a bit of a pass you don't get back home. Social freedoms I have while still present for me, might not necessarily be there for your average Chinese person who faces cultural stigmas if not laws against doing the same thing. I think perhaps you strike the nail on the head when you say that it's just living in a democracy can be exhausting at times because you feel involved in everything. Maybe my newfound appreciation for the authoritarian is just a symptom of "democracy fatigue".

Truthfully, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and enjoy sharing what is I think my own pretty unique perspective as someone living quite comfortably in a country that is on paper anyways anathema to my stated political beliefs. It's both softened my views on it and widened my appreciation for how human societies can function.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

I do agree that it's a very hollow argument (personally I would be insulted if someone used it against me)

I can see your point though, even though it had some holes its presentation. Most authoritarians in the West, myself included, view our culture as being too laxed, too tolerant....and if you look at all the nutjobs here you can't really say we're wrong.

You're wrong. Oh, look, I can say it!

[Lancaster of Wessex]

As much as I hate authoritarianism of any kind, I can see the appeal Meritocracy might have for many. It's not those Authoritarians that I blame.
but when I see people promoting literal 1984 type totalitarianism, and when I see people defend Stalin, of all people (and I've seen 'woke' leftists go so far as to say "ok so stalin was antisemitic and had homophobic laws but maaaaaaaaybe they deserved it?" (Of course, they do condemn most of the West for its semi-homophobic laws in the same era), or even worse, the DPRK, I tend to disagree with you.
I can really say some of them are wrong.

There's nothing wrong with laws restricting homosexuality, or even certain Jewish practices (specifically, the use of certain passages from the Talmud).

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

[Pasong Tirad]

There's nothing wrong with laws restricting homosexuality, or even certain Jewish practices (specifically, the use of certain passages from the Talmud).

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

History is rife with states that have in the past attempted to impose a strict interpretation of Christian morality upon its citizens, to varying degrees of "success" (by success, I don't mean to imply that I thought it was a good idea - I don't). From rule of the friars in the Philippines to clerical fascism and Christian death squads in Spain and Romania.

[Anywhere Else But Here]

There's nothing wrong with laws restricting homosexuality, or even certain Jewish practices (specifically, the use of certain passages from the Talmud).

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

Throw him to the lions!

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

History is rife with states that have in the past attempted to impose a strict interpretation of Christian morality upon its citizens, to varying degrees of "success" (by success, I don't mean to imply that I thought it was a good idea - I don't). From rule of the friars in the Philippines to clerical fascism and Christian death squads in Spain and Romania.

Oh I know, and it reeks to hell of hypocrisy and apostasy. Look at the Jews being expelled from England in the Middle Ages, and so on, there's been tons of Christian pogroms against Jews over the centuries.

[United Muscovite Nations]

There's nothing wrong with laws restricting homosexuality, or even certain Jewish practices (specifically, the use of certain passages from the Talmud).

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

There are parts of the Talmud that exist to insult Christians, and several others which encourage violence against gentiles.

[Vandario]

I am an authoritarian because I prefer social and economic stability over liberty, namely the liberty to shirk your duty to the State and therefore the country and society.

I think democracy is a terrible idea. Because it forces politicians to pander to the lowest common denominator to be elected, it is nothing more than a public popularity contest, politicians being elected on the basis of charisma, being relatable, and who can beg from private donors better. Democratic States being governed by self-interested parties rather than those who have a vested interest in seeing the whole nation prosper.

My ideal economic system is one with private property and a mixed economy, with the State owning strategic industries such as utilities, education, healthcare, and especially finance.

Under authoritarianism, the State does not try to totally control every aspect of society, unlike totalitarianism, contending itself with controlling only the political sphere, nor does it actively encourage the citizenry to accept the State's ideology, only suppressing subversives engaging in anti-State and therefore anti-society activity.

I cannot stress how much I dislike liberal democracy.

I am pretty much in total agreement, I somewhat be discribed as a Neo-Fascist, but personally don't agree with Totalitarianism, because individualism is still needed on a level. A completely obedient population is a brain drain, there still needs to be free thinking, just that thinking be directed in a direction that benefits the State and Folk thus Authoritarianism. I see it imperative to maintain the unity of the people and to produce an environment that creates strong community values. That Collectivism is put over Individualism. Not to say one's identity be stamped out, but more one to understand that things are bigger and more important then the individual alone. That we all serve a greater good, be that religion, or ideology, maybe both mixed.

Private Property should be left to the individual while vital resources for The State be nationalized, such as say oil, or media. Like you said not exactly complete control, but we should make it an important part to impart and instill the important values citizens should hold. Nationalism, desire to work with the community, honor and duty. This can be done though education, and media. While softer approaches, they take longer, but develop a much healthier and wholesome environment among the folk.

Economy wise Third Position I find the best, it's Capitalism without so much the internationalism elements. As an example say The Market or Economy is a dog. Capitalism, especially when taken to it's extreme wishes to let the dog run wild. Let it chase neighborhood cats, and crap in their yards, bark all night and make a massive annoyance of itself. Communism though wishes to simply kill the dog, viewing it nothing but a danger, that it may attack them. Third Position aims to leash the dog, train it, to make it serve it's master the Folk and Economy. By keeping most but not all economic affairs in the nation. After all we must take the dog out for walk, there for complete Autarky is impossible without some form of world conquest, which will only bring destruction to the nation. No nation alone could conquer all the resources needed and hold it. That's why limited international trade is desired among all nations and people's. Though enough to meet demands, but not enough to become so economicly dependant on everyone else. It's honestly a difficult line to tred, but nothing worth doing is easy they say.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Again, the irony of a Christian promoting the restriction of freedoms and now even "certain" Jewish practices is just amazing.

There are parts of the Talmud that exist to insult Christians, and several others which encourage violence against gentiles.

OK, and how many of those parts are actually acted upon by Orthodox Jews and the like? Extremely extremely few I dare say. So. It's not a matter of concern.

Ironic that you as a Christian support the very model of tyranny that had our Lord and Savior executed at Calvary.

Was Imperial Rome a good experimental model too? How many in Iran who have spoken out against the Islamist regime been persecuted, arrested, or maybe even executed (edit)? You call this a "good experimental model?"

And still no reply from yesterday.

[United Muscovite Nations]

There are parts of the Talmud that exist to insult Christians, and several others which encourage violence against gentiles.

OK, and how many of those parts are actually acted upon by Orthodox Jews and the like? Extremely extremely few I dare say. So. It's not a matter of concern.

Was Imperial Rome a good experimental model too? How many in Iran who have spoken out against the Islamist regime been persecuted, arrested, or maybe even executed (edit)? You call this a "good experimental model?"

And still no reply from yesterday.

Late Imperial Rome was fantastic. Theodosius the Great forever.

[Lancaster of Wessex]

Late Imperial Rome was fantastic. Theodosius the Great forever.

Imperial Rome killed your Savior and trampled upon countless hundreds of thousands of lives in numerous cultures.

Funny how those who support authoritarian regimes be it this or modern China just ignore those who are suffering and persecuted under these regimes, so long as generally speaking, most others are okay.

[Pasong Tirad]

Late Imperial Rome was fantastic. Theodosius the Great forever.

Imperial Rome killed your Savior and trampled upon countless hundreds of thousands of lives in numerous cultures.

Funny how those who support authoritarian regimes be it this or modern China just ignore those who are suffering and persecuted under these regimes, so long as generally speaking, most others are okay.

Because fuck the poor, amirite?

[Sovaal]

Late Imperial Rome was fantastic. Theodosius the Great forever.

Imperial Rome killed your Savior and trampled upon countless hundreds of thousands of lives in numerous cultures.

Funny how those who support authoritarian regimes be it this or modern China just ignore those who are suffering and persecuted under these regimes, so long as generally speaking, most others are okay.

Not a authoritarian or whatever, but Rome adopting Christianity was a pretty big step in the religion's proliferation.

[Pasong Tirad]

Imperial Rome killed your Savior and trampled upon countless hundreds of thousands of lives in numerous cultures.

Funny how those who support authoritarian regimes be it this or modern China just ignore those who are suffering and persecuted under these regimes, so long as generally speaking, most others are okay.

Not a authoritarian or whatever, but Rome adopting Christianity was a pretty big step in the religion's proliferation.

Those are two different points, though.

Rome killed Jesus, yes. And then, a century or so later, they adopted Christianity because "whoops, sorry dude. idk maybe the Jews did it."

[United Muscovite Nations]

Late Imperial Rome was fantastic. Theodosius the Great forever.

Imperial Rome killed your Savior and trampled upon countless hundreds of thousands of lives in numerous cultures.

Funny how those who support authoritarian regimes be it this or modern China just ignore those who are suffering and persecuted under these regimes, so long as generally speaking, most others are okay.

Christ died of His own volition, which He said explicitly; and late Imperial Rome was Christian.