Mars or a border wall?

[Cruciland]

Immigration wouldn't be a problem if we had gone with the original manifest destiny.

Both.

Ah finally, some sensible folk on NSG!

[Coalition of North American States]

Wall=useless waste of cash

[Valrifell]

Anybody who opposes the wall is secretly aHun Mongol or Scotsman.

FTFY

[Saiwania]

The border wall is much easier to do and more practical, you can enjoy it tomorrow as opposed to many decades from now. You have a better chance at reelection doing what benefits the nation as opposed to blowing a ton of money on space when there is nothing out there.

[Purpelia]

The border wall is much easier to do and more practical, you can enjoy it tomorrow as opposed to many decades from now. You have a better chance at reelection doing what benefits the nation as opposed to blowing a ton of money on space when there is nothing out there.

Would you prefer it if there was something out there and we ended up fodder for space conquistadors or opening up a hell portal in alien ruins on mars or something similarly cool and impressive?

[Valrifell]

The border wall is much easier to do and more practical, you can enjoy it tomorrow as opposed to many decades from now. You have a better chance at reelection doing what benefits the nation as opposed to blowing a ton of money on space when there is nothing out there.

Why do you hate science and people?

[Uinted Communist of Africa]

MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!MARS!!!---every nerd on earth

[Cruciland]

The border wall is much easier to do and more practical, you can enjoy it tomorrow as opposed to many decades from now. You have a better chance at reelection doing what benefits the nation as opposed to blowing a ton of money on space when there is nothing out there.

Why do you hate science and people?

The strawman is stronk in this one.

[Vassenor]

Why do you hate science and people?

The strawman is stronk in this one.

Given that the choice in this scenario is between spending money to expand our knowledge of the universe or spending money to appease a band of raving cocksores...

[Purpelia]

The strawman is stronk in this one.

Given that the choice in this scenario is between spending money to expand our knowledge of the universe or spending money to appease a band of raving cocksores...

The choice in this scenario is between spending money to do something of dubious economic value vs spending money on a scientifically worthless endeavor that could be done much better by sending up a bunch of robots and whose only value is bragging rights for the nation that does it.

[Cruciland]

The strawman is stronk in this one.

Given that the choice in this scenario is between spending money to expand our knowledge of the universe or spending money to appease a band of raving cocksores...

Well now, that depends on whether or not you think a nation should try expanding into space when it already had a near-miss with societal implosion. I'd like to think funneling potential immigrants through a set of gates with security will go a long way towards avoiding the same implosion that's already befalling much of the EU. Seriously, we just managed to coax business back into the US. Can we at least breathe a little and grow our job market before swamping the country with unskilled (and undocumented, no less) laborers?

[Vassenor]

Given that the choice in this scenario is between spending money to expand our knowledge of the universe or spending money to appease a band of raving cocksores...

Well now, that depends on whether or not you think a nation should try expanding into space when it already had a near-miss with societal implosion. I'd like to think funneling potential immigrants through a set of gates with security will go a long way towards avoiding the same implosion that's already befalling much of the EU. Seriously, we just managed to coax business back into the US. Can we at least breathe a little and grow our job market before swamping the country with unskilled (and undocumented, no less) laborers?

Pretty sure the EU isn't actually collapsing. And no one is talking about colonizing mars yet.

[Purpelia]

Well now, that depends on whether or not you think a nation should try expanding into space when it already had a near-miss with societal implosion. I'd like to think funneling potential immigrants through a set of gates with security will go a long way towards avoiding the same implosion that's already befalling much of the EU. Seriously, we just managed to coax business back into the US. Can we at least breathe a little and grow our job market before swamping the country with unskilled (and undocumented, no less) laborers?

Pretty sure the EU isn't actually collapsing. And no one is talking about colonizing mars yet.

If they were though that would actually be something worth investing in. Like, we could set up a program to ship all our undesirables to mars where they could set up their own communities that live by what ever insane rules they want to. Jihady caliphate? Sure, take dome #3. Man hating feminists in search of an all female society? Dome #15, mind the door. Ultra christian radicals, violent genocidal Buddhists, neo nazis, etc. We've got domes for you too.

Than we could finally build a proper Stalinist utopia on earth just as uncle Joe intended.

[Alvecia]

Given that the choice in this scenario is between spending money to expand our knowledge of the universe or spending money to appease a band of raving cocksores...

The choice in this scenario is between spending money to do something of dubious economic value vs spending money on a scientifically worthless endeavor that could be done much better by sending up a bunch of robots and whose only value is bragging rights for the nation that does it.

Eh, I wouldn't really say any venture into space is scientifically worthless tbh. Science thrives on data, and the amount of data gathered just by designing, building, launching, and crashing a space probe is incredibly valuable. Sending people would be more so, given that we've very little data on that.

[Vassenor]

Pretty sure the EU isn't actually collapsing. And no one is talking about colonizing mars yet.

If they were though that would actually be something worth investing in. Like, we could set up a program to ship all our undesirables to mars where they could set up their own communities that live by what ever insane rules they want to. Jihady caliphate? Sure, take dome #3. Man hating feminists in search of an all female society? Dome #15, mind the door. Ultra christian radicals, violent genocidal Buddhists, neo nazis, etc. We've got domes for you too.

Than we could finally build a proper Stalinist utopia on earth just as uncle Joe intended.

You mean like all the Jews were meant to get shipped to Madagascar?

[Purpelia]

If they were though that would actually be something worth investing in. Like, we could set up a program to ship all our undesirables to mars where they could set up their own communities that live by what ever insane rules they want to. Jihady caliphate? Sure, take dome #3. Man hating feminists in search of an all female society? Dome #15, mind the door. Ultra christian radicals, violent genocidal Buddhists, neo nazis, etc. We've got domes for you too.

Than we could finally build a proper Stalinist utopia on earth just as uncle Joe intended.

You mean like all the Jews were meant to get shipped to Madagascar?

Which eventually happened in a way, just to the middle east instead. In fact, the situation of israel and its foundations is actually a really good analogy for what I am talking about. You set up a colony somewhere designated for members of a certain group and than you allow voluntary settlement there for any member of that group that wants it. The only difference is that I would stipulate a rule by which, given that their promised land now exists and is open to them, any members of said group who violently or aggressively* espouse their views should either shut up or move there. Which by the way, to my understanding, is that radical zionists did when israel was founded.

It's a win win for everyone really. Any group that wants to live life in isolation and accordance to their own rules and their own rules alone and responsible to only them self and maybe god can do so. And the rest of us can be free of them.

* Underlined part is very important.

[Petrolheadia]

Lower immigration = decrease supply in the job market = increase wages.

Supply & demand 101.

Deportation and active enforcement of employment laws does the same thing.

Why can't we have all?

[Purpelia]

Lower immigration = decrease supply in the job market = increase wages.

Supply & demand 101.

Deportation and active enforcement of employment laws does the same thing.

It also relies a lot on the human factor which in any nation will be shitty because whilst law makers see the economic reality of things enforcers on the ground see individual people and therefore find it difficult to enforce said laws.

[Davinhia]

I would choose both

but if i had to pick one or the other
it's mars all the way

[The Chris Empire]

Mars!

[Alvecia]

Deportation and active enforcement of employment laws does the same thing.

Why can't we have all?

I'm pretty sure long term, immigration improves the economy. More people, more consumers, more demand, more money in the economy, more taxes, etc.

[Colbert Super PAC]

Mars Pater Victor!

[Saiwania]

I say no to Mars, we need to focus a bit on our own planet if we live on it but isn't getting better. People could be spending $500 billion a year on removing excess CO2 through various means such as Direct Air Capture to accomplish "negative emissions." Sounds outrageously expensive, but perhaps isn't if it really will cost the world economy in excess of $1 billion per day if the build up of carbon heating the Earth is allowed to continue out of control as it has.

People are too selfish or short sighted to completely stop the use of fossil fuels, so the solution is to get a high enough amount of negative emissions technology working, in short- carbon removal. It is energy intensive and expensive, but could eventually scale well and be made affordable in the long term. But the main selling point is that not doing it will cost us more as a species. We need to proactively cool the planet back down gradually by removing the excess greenhouse gases that we've left behind, clean up our own mess for once.

Planting trees is so pathetic in terms of impact. To really turn the corner, only the best of science, chemistry, and technology will do.

There is currently one power plant in Hellisheidi, Iceland that has been verified as truly "carbon negative." I think this is just the beginning. There will be more of it eventually with more carbon capture ability, and that is the single best way to meet the Paris climate treaty. Without it, the 2 Celsius increase won't be met, there will be twice as much temperature increase if not more- if history is any guide.

[Purpelia]

Why can't we have all?

I'm pretty sure long term, immigration improves the economy. More people, more consumers, more demand, more money in the economy, more taxes, etc.

That's only true for economies who have a constant supply of spare economic capacity to create new jobs. And that's only true in industrial economies like those in China and the developing world (And the western world several decades ago). In economies with a shortage of spare work places and industry the opposite is true. In those societies immigration drives down the price of labor by competing for the same, limited and insufficient supply of jobs thus driving medium income and demand down. This in turn has a negative effect long term as it drives down the incentive to expand the economy by opening new businesses.

TLDR if you are already growing than more people means faster growth. If you are NOT growing than more people means even less growth.

[Ifreann]

Mars. Though without the terraforming nonsense.

Why terraform a whole planet when we can just turn ourselves into immortal, perfect machines that can live in any environment?

---

The border wall is much easier to do and more practical, you can enjoy it tomorrow as opposed to many decades from now.

Tomorrow?

It's been months and they're only now building prototype wall sections for testing.

You have a better chance at reelection doing what benefits the nation as opposed to blowing a ton of money on space when there is nothing out there.

There's lots of stuff out there.