ISIS member, German girl of 16, faces death penalty in Iraq.

[Risottia]

A "legal" participant - that is a combatant in the armed forces of recognised State parties - or any other kind of participant to a war - that is any other kind of combatant, like her - doesn't matter.
Article 3 of the Third Geneva Convention states she is protected because she surrendered (or was captured) and is detained now. She most likely doesn't qualify as POW (I doubt she and ISIS comply with the definition of parties and POWs as per art.4 of the same Convention), still art.3 states she shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, and that she must be judged and sentenced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognised as indispensable by civilised peoples. Article 3's protections exist even if one is not classified as a prisoner of war.

That said - and I don't think Iraq is thinking of just having a drumhead court for a foreign minor, especially not a European citizen - Iraq has signed a treaty and is bound by that treaty not to sentence her to death. That said, while clearly a criminal, she's also a victim in Iraq, as the rights Iraq recognises to minors in warfare ( Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict, signed by Iraq in 2008) include that minors cannot be recruited for any purpose by non-state actors (such as ISIS).

My opinion? Just sentence her to ten years in jail in Iraq, then extradite her to Germany (I don't see why Iraqis should pay for her), and have Germany keep her in for all the sentence time, while paying for her rehabilitation.

victim? a victim of killing innocents? Of participating in enslavement of others? Crimes against humanity?

Can't you read before answering? Now it's in bold, large and red. Re-read.

Explanation, shouldn't it be clear enough.
She's guilty of killing people and being a member of a criminal organisation (at the very least).
She's victim of being a minor who was recruited as combatant by a non-state actor.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

victim? a victim of killing innocents? Of participating in enslavement of others? Crimes against humanity?

Can't you read before answering? Now it's in bold, large and red. Re-read.

Explanation, shouldn't it be clear enough.
She's guilty of killing people and being a member of a criminal organisation (at the very least).
She's victim of being a minor who was recruited as combatant by a non-state actor.

The girl lived in Germany, it's not like a gang would come to her house to kill her if she said no.

[Uxupox]

victim? a victim of killing innocents? Of participating in enslavement of others? Crimes against humanity?

Can't you read before answering? Now it's in bold, large and red. Re-read.

Explanation, shouldn't it be clear enough.
She's guilty of killing people and being a member of a criminal organisation (at the very least).
She's victim of being a minor who was recruited as combatant by a non-state actor.

You are definitely right when you stated that she is guilty of killing other people and acting in criminal activity.

Victim? What kind of victim goes from one parent country (This being Germany) to another one occupied by a defacto warlord with the intent to join said warlord to commit acts of inhumane activity?

[Kramania]

Oh well. They'll get over it.

It makes it difficult for people to seriously advocate more assertive policies with regards to muslims and the middle east when others on their side ignore things like the rule of law and human rights.
It's a child, ofcourse they shouldn't be executed. You could argue the age of majority should be lowered perhaps, but if you're going to propose hanging 8 year olds i think you're going to have to have a good argument for it.

1. She's not 8.

2. She knowingly joined the most dangerous terrorist organization in the world.

3. She killed Iraqi soldiers.

I don't frankly care how young she is. She deserves to be executed with impunity.

[Risottia]

You are definitely right when you stated that she is guilty of killing other people and acting in criminal activity.

Victim? What kind of victim goes from one parent country (This being Germany) to another one occupied by a defacto warlord with the intent to join said warlord to commit acts of inhumane activity?

A minor who, being a minor, doesn't know better and is especially vulnerable to religious or political propaganda, or to emotional blackmail. Minors are rather easy to manipulate. I do it every day as part of my job.

The girl lived in Germany, it's not like a gang would come to her house to kill her if she said no.

You know what's the point of being considered a minor, right? "Too young, doesn't know better, adults should decide for her instead".

[Risottia]

She deserves to be executed with impunity.

What you think she deserves and what I think she deserves is irrelevant.
What the law states about her rights and her crimes is what matters.

[Kramania]

She deserves to be executed with impunity.

What you think she deserves and what I think she deserves is irrelevant.
What the law states about her rights and her crimes is what matters.

And apparently she can be executed in Iraq.

[Risottia]

What you think she deserves and what I think she deserves is irrelevant.
What the law states about her rights and her crimes is what matters.

And apparently she can be executed in Iraq.

No, she can't. Iraq has signed a treaty which forbids the death penalty for minors. Treatises rank above ordinary law.

From OP:

Iraq is a signatory to international treaties forbidding the use of the death penalty on those under 18

.

If you have different information, please provide link.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

A minor who, being a minor, doesn't know better and is especially vulnerable to religious or political propaganda, or to emotional blackmail. Minors are rather easy to manipulate.

The girl was 15/16 yrs old. She knows very well better what ISIS is and does and how they do it. There is no excuse for her unless she was threatened with death.

I do it every day as part of my job.

What do you do?

The girl lived in Germany, it's not like a gang would come to her house to kill her if she said no.

You know what's the point of being considered a minor, right? "Too young, doesn't know better, adults should decide for her instead".[/quote]
That either mean her parents encouraged her or she sneaked out.

[Risottia]

A minor who, being a minor, doesn't know better and is especially vulnerable to religious or political propaganda, or to emotional blackmail. Minors are rather easy to manipulate.

The girl was 15/16 yrs old. She knows very well better what ISIS is and does and how they do it. There is no excuse for her unless she was threatened with death.

People are considered to be minors in Iraq and in Germany and by the UN until they come of age at 18. "Minor" implies "is at least partly excused from her responsibilities because she's too young to know better".

I do it every day as part of my job.

What do you do?

I'm a teacher. I manipulate people, especially minors, into learning stuff.

That either mean her parents encouraged her or she sneaked out.

Could be.
So their parents, to begin with, failed in their duties towards her as her legal custodians.

[Pope Joan]

This reminds me of how gangs in the US use kids to commit murder because they will get a light sentence. The answer is to try them as adults. "Gangs intentionally recruit children and use them to carry weapons and drugs or commit other crimes because they tend to attract less attention from police. If caught they serve shorter sentences in juvenile detention centers than an adult gang member would serve in prison."
http://people.howstuffworks.com/street-gang2.htm

[Kennlind]

Good! All Daesh fighters should face justice

The girl was 15/16 yrs old. She knows very well better what ISIS is and does and how they do it. There is no excuse for her unless she was threatened with death.

People are considered to be minors in Iraq and in Germany and by the UN until they come of age at 18. "Minor" implies "is at least partly excused from her responsibilities because she's too young to know better".

What 15/16 year old joins ISIS because they're bored? She joined to establish a caliphate. She joined to kill innocents. She KNEW what she was doing. Stop assuming all minors are unable to comprehend what their actions actually mean.

[Salandriagado]

Almost as thought the Bush administration made the term up to give their practice of kidnapping and torturing people some veneer of legality.

Under what army is the girl operating in? She isn't operating in either German, Iraqi or Syrian forces and henceforth cannot be tried as a legal participant in the war as ISIS is to be considered a violent non-state actor not recognized by any other nation in the world.

Again: either she's a legal participant in the war, or she's a civilian. Either way, she's protected by the Geneva Convention.

A "legal" participant - that is a combatant in the armed forces of recognised State parties - or any other kind of participant to a war - that is any other kind of combatant, like her - doesn't matter.
Article 3 of the Third Geneva Convention states she is protected because she surrendered (or was captured) and is detained now. She most likely doesn't qualify as POW (I doubt she and ISIS comply with the definition of parties and POWs as per art.4 of the same Convention), still art.3 states she shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, including prohibition of outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment, and that she must be judged and sentenced by a regularly constituted court, affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognised as indispensable by civilised peoples. Article 3's protections exist even if one is not classified as a prisoner of war.

That said - and I don't think Iraq is thinking of just having a drumhead court for a foreign minor, especially not a European citizen - Iraq has signed a treaty and is bound by that treaty not to sentence her to death. That said, while clearly a criminal, she's also a victim in Iraq, as the rights Iraq recognises to minors in warfare ( Optional Protocol to the Convention on the Rights of the Child on the Involvement of Children in Armed Conflict, signed by Iraq in 2008) include that minors cannot be recruited for any purpose by non-state actors (such as ISIS).

My opinion? Just sentence her to ten years in jail in Iraq, then extradite her to Germany (I don't see why Iraqis should pay for her), and have Germany keep her in for all the sentence time, while paying for her rehabilitation.

She is not covered by it as she does not belong to any recognized armed force.

That is not a requirement of that article. That article also applies to, say, civilians that are taken prisoner.

[Krasny-Volny]

You are definitely right when you stated that she is guilty of killing other people and acting in criminal activity.

Victim? What kind of victim goes from one parent country (This being Germany) to another one occupied by a defacto warlord with the intent to join said warlord to commit acts of inhumane activity?

A minor who, being a minor, doesn't know better and is especially vulnerable to religious or political propaganda, or to emotional blackmail. Minors are rather easy to manipulate. I do it every day as part of my job.

I hope you realize a sizeable percentage of our posters in General are minors. I'm not, you're not, and most of our regulars aren't, but perhaps we could give the others that are a little more credit than this.

[Nocturnalis]

Again: either she's a legal participant in the war, or she's a civilian. Either way, she's protected by the Geneva Convention.

She is fairly obviously a participant in the war, to argue that she is a civilian is nonsense.

So let us take a look at what the Conventions have to say on taking Prisoners of War:
Third Convention, Article IV. (I'm sure this part's been posted in this thread before but if requested i'll edit it in).

Art 4. A. Prisoners of war, in the sense of the present Convention, are persons belonging
to one of the following categories, who have fallen into the power of the enemy:

(1) Members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as well as members of militias
or volunteer corps forming part of such armed forces.

The first category pretty clearly encompasses the armed forces (and subservient militias/volunteer groups) of legally-recognized states, and thus not ISIS.

(2) Members of other militias and members of other volunteer corps, including those of
organized resistance movements, belonging to a Party to the conflict and operating in or
outside their own territory, even if this territory is occupied, provided that such militias or
volunteer corps, including such organized resistance movements, fulfil the following
conditions:

An "organized resistance movement" is the closest the articles get to describing something like ISIS. So she would fall under this category. But note, however, that the Convention establishes a set of conditions before captive irregular combatants (which is what she is) can qualify as a POW. To wit:

(a) that of being commanded by a person responsible for his subordinates;
(b) that of having a fixed distinctive sign recognizable at a distance;
(c) that of carrying arms openly;
(d) that of conducting their operations in accordance with the laws and customs of war

(a) During her service with ISIS, it is reasonable to assume she was under the command of a superior officer. Check.
(b) I'm not too sure how identifiable ISIS fighters are, but for the sake of the argument let us assume that they follow this condition.
(c) Not sure if she was found with a weapon, but a disarmed fighter does not suddenly become a civilian. Murkier still is how this applies when she was armed. But, again, for the sake of the argument let us assume that she passes this condition too.
(d) Whoops. ISIS does not wage their conflict in accordance with any laws and customs of war, as we've seen countless times over the past few years. The same is true for plenty of other terrorist groups across the world.

The Convention does not apply to ISIS, and thus the Convention does not apply to our "German" friend here. She is not a prisoner of war, but a criminal to be tried by the Iraqi legal system. It is nobody elses business but the Iraqi's as to what happens to her.

[Constantinopolis]

Daesh wanted to be a state, right? And they were one de facto, right? So let's treat them like one.

This girl shouldn't have German citizenship any more. She fled Germany to join the military of another state. Germany should wash its hands of her and treat her as if she had changed her citizenship. That is literally what she wanted to do, after all.

On the one hand, this would make her a prisoner of war, so the Geneva Conventions should apply. She shouldn't be executed. But she should stay in an Iraqi POW camp until the end of the war. Upon the end of the war - assuming Daesh no longer exists - she should be treated as a stateless person resident in Iraq, who has committed crimes against Iraq. Then she ought to be tried for those crimes, in accordance with Iraqi law.

[Salandriagado]

Daesh wanted to be a state, right? And they were one de facto, right? So let's treat them like one.

This girl shouldn't have German citizenship any more. She fled Germany to join the military of another state. Germany should wash its hands of her and treat her as if she had changed her citizenship. That is literally what she wanted to do, after all.

On the one hand, this would make her a prisoner of war, so the Geneva Conventions should apply. She shouldn't be executed. But she should stay in an Iraqi POW camp until the end of the war. Upon the end of the war - assuming Daesh no longer exists - she should be treated as a stateless person resident in Iraq, who has committed crimes against Iraq. Then she ought to be tried for those crimes, in accordance with Iraqi law.

From what I can tell, there's actually no part of German law that forbids citizens from being part of the military of other states. Looks like it's done the other way: most states just don't let you join their military without first resigning potentially problematic foreign citizenships.

[Constantinopolis]

Daesh wanted to be a state, right? And they were one de facto, right? So let's treat them like one.

This girl shouldn't have German citizenship any more. She fled Germany to join the military of another state. Germany should wash its hands of her and treat her as if she had changed her citizenship. That is literally what she wanted to do, after all.

On the one hand, this would make her a prisoner of war, so the Geneva Conventions should apply. She shouldn't be executed. But she should stay in an Iraqi POW camp until the end of the war. Upon the end of the war - assuming Daesh no longer exists - she should be treated as a stateless person resident in Iraq, who has committed crimes against Iraq. Then she ought to be tried for those crimes, in accordance with Iraqi law.

From what I can tell, there's actually no part of German law that forbids citizens from being part of the military of other states. Looks like it's done the other way: most states just don't let you join their military without first resigning potentially problematic foreign citizenships.

I know - or rather, I was generally aware that Germany makes it very difficult to forfeit German citizenship, because of that thing back in the 30s when a whole ethnic group had their citizenship revoked. They want to get as far away from that as possible.

Also, she's not technically a POW under the Geneva Conventions, because Daesh was never recognized as a state by anyone.

But I wasn't talking about how things are within the current legal context; I was describing how I believe they should be.

[Communist Xomaniax]

Just give her a life sentence in Iraq. Iraq signed a treaty promising not to execute minors, but her crimes were committed in Iraq against Iraqis. Either she can be tried as an adult and executed at 18, or given a life sentence.

[The of Japan]

Just give her a life sentence in Iraq. Iraq signed a treaty promising not to execute minors, but her crimes were committed in Iraq against Iraqis. Either she can be tried as an adult and executed at 18, or given a life sentence.

Promising, and in war those documents effectively become pieces of paper anyways

[Communist Xomaniax]

Just give her a life sentence in Iraq. Iraq signed a treaty promising not to execute minors, but her crimes were committed in Iraq against Iraqis. Either she can be tried as an adult and executed at 18, or given a life sentence.

Promising, and in war those documents effectively become pieces of paper anyways

The rule of law is important, especially for fragile states like Iraq.

[The of Japan]

Promising, and in war those documents effectively become pieces of paper anyways

The rule of law is important, especially for fragile states like Iraq.

It is a treaty, not a proper law

[Communist Xomaniax]

The rule of law is important, especially for fragile states like Iraq.

It is a treaty, not a proper law

A binding treaty, which IS considered law. A life sentence in Iraq is the best compromise for the situation.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Good riddance. If you don't know right from wrong by 16, you never will.

Not that these thugs were worth keeping alive either way.

[Polar Svalbard]

I think the European states should token lobby, but really just allow Iraq to do what it pleases with these evil human beings. Terrorism is not something that any nation should condone. Finally we see the fall of ISIS, two years of hoping to find light.