ISIS member, German girl of 16, faces death penalty in Iraq.

[Trotskylvania]

War criminals should be hanged.

Provided she can be assured a fair trial, there really is no reasonable objection to this possible outcome. Violating the laws of war isn't child's play, it's a matter of life and death. We deter it precisely by providing severe punishment for violation, and ensuring a reasonable inevitability of punishment. Unless you can reasonably demonstrate that Wenzel was coerced into joining and under constant duress to commit her unlawful actions, she is just as culpable.

Iraq should uphold its treaty obligations with regards to the execution of minors, and commute any death sentence to life imprisonment. And unless they do so, the German government is obligated to press for her extradition.

But the laws of armed conflict should be a strict line in the sand, and people who cross them must be punished. And I won't be losing any sleep if she does end up at the gallows.

The death penalty is a matter of life and death too... Literally everything you've said here works just as well when making the opposite case to the one you made.

I would argue it was probably a given she was probably under constant duress. We're all well-aware of how ISIS treats women. I don't believe that excludes her from culpability either, but it's probably a factor.

You literally said she shouldn't be exected after advocating that she be. This argument really doesn't make sense.

No, I said your absolutist stance against the death penalty is ridiculous given the severity of matters like war crimes, and their public, infamous nature. And the only reason why Wenzel has any legal recourse is that both Germany and Iraq are signatories to treaties prohibiting the execution of minors. This is a legal consideration, not necessarily a moral one.

War is already barbaric enough as it is. Those who make it more barbaric by breaking the laws of war should be punished.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The German gov should make a token plea to have her extradited, as is customary, but I don't think it can or should insist on the extradition.
She voluntarily travelled to Iraq on her own and commited crimes against Iraqi nationals on Iraqi soil. The final say on her fate should lie firmly with the Iraqi authorities.

I agree.

[Cedoria]

The death penalty is a matter of life and death too... Literally everything you've said here works just as well when making the opposite case to the one you made.

I would argue it was probably a given she was probably under constant duress. We're all well-aware of how ISIS treats women. I don't believe that excludes her from culpability either, but it's probably a factor.

You literally said she shouldn't be exected after advocating that she be. This argument really doesn't make sense.

No, I said your absolutist stance against the death penalty is ridiculous given the severity of matters like war crimes, and their public, infamous nature. And the only reason why Wenzel has any legal recourse is that both Germany and Iraq are signatories to treaties prohibiting the execution of minors. This is a legal consideration, not necessarily a moral one.

War is already barbaric enough as it is. Those who make it more barbaric by breaking the laws of war should be punished.

Once again, this argument works just as well the other way. War is barbaric enough as it is, so we should not make it moreso by stooping to the depravity of our enemies.

Nothing you said proves my stance the wrong one.

[Bakery Hill]

No, I said your absolutist stance against the death penalty is ridiculous given the severity of matters like war crimes, and their public, infamous nature. And the only reason why Wenzel has any legal recourse is that both Germany and Iraq are signatories to treaties prohibiting the execution of minors. This is a legal consideration, not necessarily a moral one.

War is already barbaric enough as it is. Those who make it more barbaric by breaking the laws of war should be punished.

Once again, this argument works just as well the other way. War is barbaric enough as it is, so we should not make it moreso by stooping to the depravity of our enemies.

Nothing you said proves my stance the wrong one.

Remember guys, if you kill your enemies, they win.

[Ostroeuropa]

Quite a bit actually, as I think the OP summarised quite admirably.

You said there was "No question" she was deserving of death. No question for you perhaps, but for others, this is not the case.

I don't believe the death penalty should be applied by the legal system.

War criminals should be hanged.

Provided she can be assured a fair trial, there really is no reasonable objection to this possible outcome. Violating the laws of war isn't child's play, it's a matter of life and death. We deter it precisely by providing severe punishment for violation, and ensuring a reasonable inevitability of punishment. Unless you can reasonably demonstrate that Wenzel was coerced into joining and under constant duress to commit her unlawful actions, she is just as culpable.

Iraq should uphold its treaty obligations with regards to the execution of minors, and commute any death sentence to life imprisonment. And unless they do so, the German government is obligated to press for her extradition.

But the laws of armed conflict should be a strict line in the sand, and people who cross them must be punished. And I won't be losing any sleep if she does end up at the gallows.

I agree with this, but i'd prefer that no national body be able to execute and that that power be left to international war crime courts. (This would also emphasize the severity, if the only time you could even face someone capable of killing you legally would be if accused of war crimes.) In addition, if we're calling her a war criminal then we're affording all kinds of rights and protections to ISIS fighters and basically guaranteeing that they can't be charged for "merely" killing soldiers. Treating them as criminals and no different to any other criminal organization instead of soldiers might take executions off the table in some cases, but denies them legitimacy as an organization and prevents them from utilizing the protections they would be afforded as soldiers.

The objection I have therefore is that I deny she is a war criminal, she is merely an extremely violent criminal. Not only that, but given that she joined ISIS under the age of majority, and was with them from then on, I question whether she can be considered fully culpable for her actions. In cases where people joined as adults, i'm fine with Iraq executing them, though i'd prefer life imprisonment. (A long stay after all can prompt sudden cooperation and yielding of information, potentially on other criminals, as well as provide poster children for reformation urging others to stay away.)
But for those who joined under 16, i'm not convinced.

[Herador]

Once again, this argument works just as well the other way. War is barbaric enough as it is, so we should not make it moreso by stooping to the depravity of our enemies.

Nothing you said proves my stance the wrong one.

Remember guys, if you kill your enemies, they win.

It worked that way in Harry Potter, and if I can't trust J.K. Rowling I don't know who I'm supposed to?

[The Knockout Gun Gals]

She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq

This post hit the mark. She already joined ISIS, she should've already know the consequences of joining such organization and the repercussions.

[Risottia]

She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq

This post hit the mark. She already joined ISIS, she should've already know the consequences of joining such organization and the repercussions.

Likely in her mind the consequence was "I'm so going to be the Most Awesome Jihadist Ever and kill infidel butt and be part of the future ruling elite of the world".
Not that this excuses her.

[Herador]

This post hit the mark. She already joined ISIS, she should've already know the consequences of joining such organization and the repercussions.

Likely in her mind the consequence was "I'm so going to be the Most Awesome Jihadist Ever and kill infidel butt and be part of the future ruling elite of the world".
Not that this excuses her.

Convincing disaffected teenagers that they can be totes the coolest by shooting people can't be that hard.

Plus telling lonely horny kids they're guaranteed a spouse who will love them because reasons has to only make things easier.

[Bakery Hill]

Remember guys, if you kill your enemies, they win.

It worked that way in Harry Potter, and if I can't trust J.K. Rowling I don't know who I'm supposed to?

> when you grow up and realise your fave author is a Blairite hack

[Ariddia]

The German gov should make a token plea to have her extradited, as is customary, but I don't think it can or should insist on the extradition.
She voluntarily travelled to Iraq on her own and commited crimes against Iraqi nationals on Iraqi soil. The final say on her fate should lie firmly with the Iraqi authorities.

I agree. Though I would certainly prefer Iraq to abide by its own laws, and refrain from executing a minor.

I won't feel at all sorry if they do kill her, though. I've never supported the death penalty, but in this particular instance I just can't bring myself to care.

[Albrenia]

I'm opposed to the death penalty, doubly so for it being used against a minor, and even more so in a country which has signed an agreement not to execute minors...

But...

In this case I won't complain. Her crimes are grave beyond what one generally considers for such things, and she has fully admitted to them. I'd prefer for her to rot in a prison (Iraqi or German) for the rest of her natural life, but in this case I wouldn't speak up in her defence.

[El-Amin Caliphate]

She's not a jihadist. Also, she should be kept in Al-'Iraq.

Jesus fucking Christ, what do you have to do these days to be counted as a jihadist?

Well, they have to be Muslim. Then they need something to be struggling/fighting over, because that's what jihad means: struggling/fighting in the cause of Allah (SWT). Then they need to the rules of jihad in Al-Islam: http://islamicsupremecouncil.org/unders ... ml?start=9

[Kramania]

So she voluntarily went to Iraq and killed Iraqi soldiers, but now that she's been captured she wants to be sent home?

Yeah, nah. She can reap the spoils of her holy war.

[Ifreann]

It's only right and proper for a government to work to vindicate the rights of their citizens, especially in instances of them facing criminal charges overseas. Regardless of what the charges against those citizens are and whether they're guilty. So Germany should make sure that Iraq gives this girl a fair trial and request that she be allowed to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

Don't EVER compare jihad to nazism
Also, yes, that's correct. All SS are Nazi, but not all Nazis are a part of SS.

I just did.
I'll do it again.
Jihadists are morally equivalent to not JUST Nazi party members but members of the Gestapo.

Jihad(جهاد‎‎) means to strive, or to struggle, especially towards some praiseworthy goal. As one might imagine this is often used in Islam in a military sense, but not exclusively so. Some Muslims consider the greater jihad to be the internal struggle against one's own sinful impulses. Some prioritise the external struggle to defend and spread Islam, but consider this to only permit defensive military action and peaceful argument to win converts. And obviously some wage jihad by taking up arms and killing Iraqi soldiers. Opinions and interpretations vary. There are quite a few Muslims and various sects and schools and what have you. It's...let's say dubious to suggest that these people are all morally equivalent both to each other and to the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

One skimmed Wikipedia article.

---

Blaming it for this girl's actions is... idiotic to put it mildly.

She's refusing to cooperate with Iraqi authorities and asking to be returned home, where the maximum penalty she could face is 10 years. Let's be honest here, that's EXACTLY why she wants to go home, because she'll get off with a slap on the wrist at the most.

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

---

So this kid:

• Knowingly joins an organization who's atrocities are well known and publicized
• Arms herself for that organization
• Admits to not just fighting, but killing Iraqi soldiers
• Was found with weapons
• Is believed to be part of a police unit who commits Gestapo-like activities
• Is uncooperative with Iraqi officials

And after all that just thinks she can go home?

Let them keep her and hopefully, kids will learn from whatever happens to her.

And it is very important for children to learn that sometimes their government will not protect their rights. How else are they to grow up to be anti-government radicals?

[Sovaal]

Honestly, I'm surprised she even surrendered to them.

Anyway, isn't it that non-state combatants aren't covered by the Geneva convention?

[Uxupox]

It's only right and proper for a government to work to vindicate the rights of their citizens, especially in instances of them facing criminal charges overseas. Regardless of what the charges against those citizens are and whether they're guilty. So Germany should make sure that Iraq gives this girl a fair trial and request that she be allowed to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

I just did.
I'll do it again.
Jihadists are morally equivalent to not JUST Nazi party members but members of the Gestapo.

Jihad(جهاد‎‎) means to strive, or to struggle, especially towards some praiseworthy goal. As one might imagine this is often used in Islam in a military sense, but not exclusively so. Some Muslims consider the greater jihad to be the internal struggle against one's own sinful impulses. Some prioritise the external struggle to defend and spread Islam, but consider this to only permit defensive military action and peaceful argument to win converts. And obviously some wage jihad by taking up arms and killing Iraqi soldiers. Opinions and interpretations vary. There are quite a few Muslims and various sects and schools and what have you. It's...let's say dubious to suggest that these people are all morally equivalent both to each other and to the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

One skimmed Wikipedia article.

---

She's refusing to cooperate with Iraqi authorities and asking to be returned home, where the maximum penalty she could face is 10 years. Let's be honest here, that's EXACTLY why she wants to go home, because she'll get off with a slap on the wrist at the most.

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

---

So this kid:

• Knowingly joins an organization who's atrocities are well known and publicized
• Arms herself for that organization
• Admits to not just fighting, but killing Iraqi soldiers
• Was found with weapons
• Is believed to be part of a police unit who commits Gestapo-like activities
• Is uncooperative with Iraqi officials

And after all that just thinks she can go home?

Let them keep her and hopefully, kids will learn from whatever happens to her.

And it is very important for children to learn that sometimes their government will not protect their rights. How else are they to grow up to be anti-government radicals?

if she wanted to stay home and not be possibly imprisoned and killed she shouldn't have murdered other people in the name her "just war". She reaps the consequences of her actions.

I'm opposed to the death penalty, doubly so for it being used against a minor, and even more so in a country which has signed an agreement not to execute minors...

But...

In this case I won't complain. Her crimes are grave beyond what one generally considers for such things, and she has fully admitted to them. I'd prefer for her to rot in a prison (Iraqi or German) for the rest of her natural life, but in this case I wouldn't speak up in her defence.

Depending exactly on which prisons she lands in (If she has her head anyway most likely she won't) then she is in for quite a bad ride.

[Krasny-Volny]

It's only right and proper for a government to work to vindicate the rights of their citizens, especially in instances of them facing criminal charges overseas. Regardless of what the charges against those citizens are and whether they're guilty. So Germany should make sure that Iraq gives this girl a fair trial and request that she be allowed to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

I just did.
I'll do it again.
Jihadists are morally equivalent to not JUST Nazi party members but members of the Gestapo.

Jihad(جهاد‎‎) means to strive, or to struggle, especially towards some praiseworthy goal. As one might imagine this is often used in Islam in a military sense, but not exclusively so. Some Muslims consider the greater jihad to be the internal struggle against one's own sinful impulses. Some prioritise the external struggle to defend and spread Islam, but consider this to only permit defensive military action and peaceful argument to win converts. And obviously some wage jihad by taking up arms and killing Iraqi soldiers. Opinions and interpretations vary. There are quite a few Muslims and various sects and schools and what have you. It's...let's say dubious to suggest that these people are all morally equivalent both to each other and to the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

One skimmed Wikipedia article.

---

She's refusing to cooperate with Iraqi authorities and asking to be returned home, where the maximum penalty she could face is 10 years. Let's be honest here, that's EXACTLY why she wants to go home, because she'll get off with a slap on the wrist at the most.

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

---

So this kid:

• Knowingly joins an organization who's atrocities are well known and publicized
• Arms herself for that organization
• Admits to not just fighting, but killing Iraqi soldiers
• Was found with weapons
• Is believed to be part of a police unit who commits Gestapo-like activities
• Is uncooperative with Iraqi officials

And after all that just thinks she can go home?

Let them keep her and hopefully, kids will learn from whatever happens to her.

And it is very important for children to learn that sometimes their government will not protect their rights. How else are they to grow up to be anti-government radicals?

I think we can all agree that going to a country with the death penalty for insurgents and killing some of their soldiers as well as committing excesses against the local civilians is straight up asking for it. It is criminally stupid.

If you did that, surely you would expect nothing less than to be tried and sentenced under the laws of that country?

Or would you really expect Ireland to come bail you out?

[Kramania]

It's only right and proper for a government to work to vindicate the rights of their citizens, especially in instances of them facing criminal charges overseas. Regardless of what the charges against those citizens are and whether they're guilty. So Germany should make sure that Iraq gives this girl a fair trial and request that she be allowed to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

I just did.
I'll do it again.
Jihadists are morally equivalent to not JUST Nazi party members but members of the Gestapo.

Jihad(جهاد‎‎) means to strive, or to struggle, especially towards some praiseworthy goal. As one might imagine this is often used in Islam in a military sense, but not exclusively so. Some Muslims consider the greater jihad to be the internal struggle against one's own sinful impulses. Some prioritise the external struggle to defend and spread Islam, but consider this to only permit defensive military action and peaceful argument to win converts. And obviously some wage jihad by taking up arms and killing Iraqi soldiers. Opinions and interpretations vary. There are quite a few Muslims and various sects and schools and what have you. It's...let's say dubious to suggest that these people are all morally equivalent both to each other and to the perpetrators of the Holocaust.

One skimmed Wikipedia article.

---

She's refusing to cooperate with Iraqi authorities and asking to be returned home, where the maximum penalty she could face is 10 years. Let's be honest here, that's EXACTLY why she wants to go home, because she'll get off with a slap on the wrist at the most.

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

---

So this kid:

• Knowingly joins an organization who's atrocities are well known and publicized
• Arms herself for that organization
• Admits to not just fighting, but killing Iraqi soldiers
• Was found with weapons
• Is believed to be part of a police unit who commits Gestapo-like activities
• Is uncooperative with Iraqi officials

And after all that just thinks she can go home?

Let them keep her and hopefully, kids will learn from whatever happens to her.

And it is very important for children to learn that sometimes their government will not protect their rights. How else are they to grow up to be anti-government radicals?

She can't serve a sentence in Germany if she's dead.

[Ifreann]

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

if she wanted to stay home and not be possibly imprisoned and killed she shouldn't have murdered other people in the name her "just war". She reaps the consequences of her actions.

And it reflects badly on her that she now doesn't want to die? I dunno, man, seems to me that most people most of the time don't want to die, I don't see how that can be bad.

I'm opposed to the death penalty, doubly so for it being used against a minor, and even more so in a country which has signed an agreement not to execute minors...

But...

In this case I won't complain. Her crimes are grave beyond what one generally considers for such things, and she has fully admitted to them. I'd prefer for her to rot in a prison (Iraqi or German) for the rest of her natural life, but in this case I wouldn't speak up in her defence.

Depending exactly on which prisons she lands in (If she has her head anyway most likely she won't) then she is in for quite a bad ride.

All the more reason for Germany to push for her to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

She wants to go home and go to prison instead of staying in Iraq and possibly being killed? Gosh. That's...em...bad?

I think we can all agree that going to a country with the death penalty for insurgents and killing some of their soldiers as well as committing excesses against the local civilians is straight up asking for it.

You may agree to whatever you wish. I wouldn't see it as someone asking to die unless they are literally asking to die, a la euthanasia.

It is criminally stupid.

I'd prefer that stupid people not die for being stupid.

If you did that, surely you would expect nothing less than to be tried and sentenced under the laws of that country?

Or would you really expect Ireland to come bail you out?

I'd expect Ireland to push for me to be treated decently while in Iraqi custody, for my rights to be respected, and for me to be allowed to serve any sentence at home. That is what decent countries do and I think Ireland more or less qualifies.

---

It's only right and proper for a government to work to vindicate the rights of their citizens, especially in instances of them facing criminal charges overseas. Regardless of what the charges against those citizens are and whether they're guilty. So Germany should make sure that Iraq gives this girl a fair trial and request that she be allowed to serve her sentence in Germany.

She can't serve a sentence in Germany if she's dead.

I'm sure Germany could manage a calm and measured reaction to a foreign nation executing a German child.

[Kramania]

if she wanted to stay home and not be possibly imprisoned and killed she shouldn't have murdered other people in the name her "just war". She reaps the consequences of her actions.

And it reflects badly on her that she now doesn't want to die? I dunno, man, seems to me that most people most of the time don't want to die, I don't see how that can be bad.

Depending exactly on which prisons she lands in (If she has her head anyway most likely she won't) then she is in for quite a bad ride.

All the more reason for Germany to push for her to serve her sentence in Germany.

---

I think we can all agree that going to a country with the death penalty for insurgents and killing some of their soldiers as well as committing excesses against the local civilians is straight up asking for it.

You may agree to whatever you wish. I wouldn't see it as someone asking to die unless they are literally asking to die, a la euthanasia.

It is criminally stupid.

I'd prefer that stupid people not die for being stupid.

If you did that, surely you would expect nothing less than to be tried and sentenced under the laws of that country?

Or would you really expect Ireland to come bail you out?

I'd expect Ireland to push for me to be treated decently while in Iraqi custody, for my rights to be respected, and for me to be allowed to serve any sentence at home. That is what decent countries do and I think Ireland more or less qualifies.

---

She can't serve a sentence in Germany if she's dead.

I'm sure Germany could manage a calm and measured reaction to a foreign nation executing a German child.

This "child" joined the most dangerous terrorist organization in the world and killed Iraqi soldiers. If Germany has a problem with her being executed then really they need to reevaluate their views.

[Ifreann]

I'm sure Germany could manage a calm and measured reaction to a foreign nation executing a German child.

This "child" joined the most dangerous terrorist organization in the world and killed Iraqi soldiers. If Germany has a problem with her being executed then really they need to reevaluate their views.

Since Germany doesn't have the death penalty I would think that they would oppose anyone being executed for any reason, especially Germans, and especially children.

[Kramania]

This "child" joined the most dangerous terrorist organization in the world and killed Iraqi soldiers. If Germany has a problem with her being executed then really they need to reevaluate their views.

Since Germany doesn't have the death penalty I would think that they would oppose anyone being executed for any reason, especially Germans, and especially children.

Oh well. They'll get over it.

[Risottia]

Since Germany doesn't have the death penalty I would think that they would oppose anyone being executed for any reason, especially Germans, and especially children.

Oh well. They'll get over it.

As Georges Clemenceau used to say.

[Ostroeuropa]

Since Germany doesn't have the death penalty I would think that they would oppose anyone being executed for any reason, especially Germans, and especially children.

Oh well. They'll get over it.

It makes it difficult for people to seriously advocate more assertive policies with regards to muslims and the middle east when others on their side ignore things like the rule of law and human rights.
It's a child, ofcourse they shouldn't be executed. You could argue the age of majority should be lowered perhaps, but if you're going to propose hanging 8 year olds i think you're going to have to have a good argument for it.