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ISIS member, German girl of 16, faces death penalty in Iraq.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

European Jihadi's, what do?

Lobby for their extradition to their home countries.
14
9%
Lobby to prevent the death penalty being applied.
17
11%
Lobby for some to be returned, and some to remain, based on some criteria.
15
10%
Allow local judiciaries to decide their fate.
108
70%
 
Total votes : 154

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Ostroeuropa
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ISIS member, German girl of 16, faces death penalty in Iraq.

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:42 am

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 2876.html#
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nalty.html

Some stuff:

German ambassadors are attempting to ensure she doesn't get the death penalty, the Iraqi prime minister has said it's out of his hands and is up to the judge and jury.

Iraq is a signatory to international treaties forbidding the use of the death penalty on those under 18, but this might be ignored as the country doesn't really have institutional traditions of the rule of law and such.

She joined ISIS at 15.

She has confessed to killing Iraqi soldiers, but is uncooperative with local authorities, asking to be sent home.

They believe she was a sniper, and was captured with explosives, alongside ISIS' all-female morality police unit, known for brutalizing those in occupied territory.

This is a potential test case, as over a thousand European Jihadists are now being detained following the capture of several ISIS strongholds. (And, unsurprisingly, the media has grabbed on to one of the most controversial to present a false dilemma that won't exist in the vast majority of cases.)

Native Jihadis are likely to face the death penalty or life imprisonment, in comparison, the sentence for German Jihadis if they are handed over will be at maximum 10 years.

Discuss!

In cases where the people joined under 16 i'd say handing them over to Europe is probably for the best, though this does create the unfortunate impression that we're basically just sparing Europeans from death and don't care about Arabs dying for doing the same kind of shit, to dispel that impression I think those who joined over 16 should probably face local judiciaries, with all the consequences that follow from that. I think it would send a clearer message if we wash our hands of those who turn traitor, but then again, it could be argued that that amounts to denying our accountability and duty to sort out this international problem, and would place an undue financial and judicial burden on middle eastern governments and populations.

What should be done with Europeans captured? How forcefully should our objections be lodged with middle eastern governments? Merely asking and being fine if they decline? Etc.

Frankly, I don't know. As I said, I think we should focus on getting the children back, and leaving the adults, though perhaps compensating the local authorities.

As for lobbying to prevent Europeans being subjected to the death penalty, I would prefer governments opposing that penalty lobbied against it in general, or in specific brackets of cases, such as children.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:46 am

She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq
Last edited by Thermodolia on Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Baltenstein » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:47 am

The German gov should make a token plea to have her extradited, as is customary, but I don't think it can or should insist on the extradition.
She voluntarily travelled to Iraq on her own and commited crimes against Iraqi nationals on Iraqi soil. The final say on her fate should lie firmly with the Iraqi authorities.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:47 am

Thermodolia wrote:She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq


She may well be, but should the german government lobby to prevent the death penalty in that case?
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:49 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq


She may well be, but should the german government lobby to prevent the death penalty in that case?

Nope
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Sep 18, 2017 11:51 am

Thermodolia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
She may well be, but should the german government lobby to prevent the death penalty in that case?

Nope


Fair enough. Poll added.
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Postby Torsiedelle » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:04 pm

Obviously it would be Germany to lobby to spare the Jihadi.

I could hardly be bothered to care how young the terrorist is. She knew damn well what she was getting into, and was dedicated enough to fight and kill Iraqi soldiers in service to a terrorist state.

So I'm obviously very much in favor of Iraq keeping and disposing of her.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:06 pm

She is an unlawful combatant, and therefore exempted from the Geneva Convention.

She was arrested in Iraq and charged with breaking Iraqi law while fighting for a group that has carried out crimes against humanity in both the EU and Iraq. As far as I'm concerned it's not Germany's problem. The Iraqi government should be free to prosecute her however they please.
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Nocturnalis
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Postby Nocturnalis » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:15 pm

"Regretting" joining ISIS only after you've been captured by the country whose soldiers you've spent the last while killing, very classy.

Why would Germany or any other European countries even want these jihadis back? That just has disaster written all over it. Let them suffer for their choices, you reap what you sow.

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-Ocelot-
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Postby -Ocelot- » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:26 pm

Bring her back

De-radicalize her

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El-Amin Caliphate
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Postby El-Amin Caliphate » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:29 pm

She's not a jihadist. Also, she should be kept in Al-'Iraq.
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Postby Eisen Wolf Reich » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:21 pm

y'know I heard sand is a nice thing to die in, its nice and cool at night time.

But on a serious note, She should be left to die in the desert for her terrorist actions. She, by my states standards, was only a few months away from the age of consent, and therefor she should be tried by the Iraqi's not shipped home, because she clearly knew what she was doing. And a the time of the killings she was likely not 15.

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Postby The Black Forrest » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:22 pm

There should be a proper psch evaluation performed by a German and Iraqi psychologist.

If she is shown to be fully functional? Then she should be tried in Iraq.

If she isn't, then Germany should offer some compensation to Iraq for her actions. She be returned and go through proper deprogramming and evaluated for release to German society.
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Postby Shofercia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:22 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/german-isis-bride-teenage-iraq-death-penalty-hanging-linda-wenzel-a7952876.html#
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... nalty.html

Some stuff:

German ambassadors are attempting to ensure she doesn't get the death penalty, the Iraqi prime minister has said it's out of his hands and is up to the judge and jury.

Iraq is a signatory to international treaties forbidding the use of the death penalty on those under 18, but this might be ignored as the country doesn't really have institutional traditions of the rule of law and such.

She joined ISIS at 15.

She has confessed to killing Iraqi soldiers, but is uncooperative with local authorities, asking to be sent home.

They believe she was a sniper, and was captured with explosives, alongside ISIS' all-female morality police unit, known for brutalizing those in occupied territory.

This is a potential test case, as over a thousand European Jihadists are now being detained following the capture of several ISIS strongholds. (And, unsurprisingly, the media has grabbed on to one of the most controversial to present a false dilemma that won't exist in the vast majority of cases.)

Native Jihadis are likely to face the death penalty or life imprisonment, in comparison, the sentence for German Jihadis if they are handed over will be at maximum 10 years.

Discuss!

In cases where the people joined under 16 i'd say handing them over to Europe is probably for the best, though this does create the unfortunate impression that we're basically just sparing Europeans from death and don't care about Arabs dying for doing the same kind of shit, to dispel that impression I think those who joined over 16 should probably face local judiciaries, with all the consequences that follow from that. I think it would send a clearer message if we wash our hands of those who turn traitor, but then again, it could be argued that that amounts to denying our accountability and duty to sort out this international problem, and would place an undue financial and judicial burden on middle eastern governments and populations.

What should be done with Europeans captured? How forcefully should our objections be lodged with middle eastern governments? Merely asking and being fine if they decline? Etc.

Frankly, I don't know. As I said, I think we should focus on getting the children back, and leaving the adults, though perhaps compensating the local authorities.

As for lobbying to prevent Europeans being subjected to the death penalty, I would prefer governments opposing that penalty lobbied against it in general, or in specific brackets of cases, such as children.


She willingly joined ISIS, so Iraq can decide her fate. If it's the death penalty, so be it.
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:24 pm

Thermodolia wrote:She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq

This. It's not like she was a child soldier brainwashed.
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Valgora
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Postby Valgora » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:25 pm

I'm fine with those under 16 being extradited to their home country to face trial; however, I couldn't care less if she, or really anyone in ISIS, is extradited or faces trial in Iraq.
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:27 pm

El-Amin Caliphate wrote:She's not a jihadist. Also, she should be kept in Al-'Iraq.

-Not a Jihadist.
-Member of ISIS.
You can pick one.

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Postby Sanctissima » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:30 pm

Good.

She made her choice, let her suffer the consequences.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:33 pm

If she were in the US she'd be in prison for life without parole.
I'm not sure that a short hanging is much worse.
Last edited by Genivaria on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:37 pm

Krasny-Volny wrote:She is an unlawful combatant, and therefore exempted from the Geneva Convention.

She was arrested in Iraq and charged with breaking Iraqi law while fighting for a group that has carried out crimes against humanity in both the EU and Iraq. As far as I'm concerned it's not Germany's problem. The Iraqi government should be free to prosecute her however they please.


^This

Very well put

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Postby Tesernia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:38 pm

Iraq can keep her. In joining a bunch of jihadi thugs she's revoked her claim to being German, or even broadly European, as far as I'm concerned.
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Postby Genivaria » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:38 pm

She has confessed to killing Iraqi soldiers.

Kid you done fucked up.
but is uncooperative with local authorities, asking to be sent home

Oh you self-entitled shit, no sorry you fucked up.
Last edited by Genivaria on Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:39 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:She joined. She knew the consequences, she knew what ISIS was doing. She had the ability to reason and she reasoned wrong.

She should be left in Iraq


She may well be, but should the german government lobby to prevent the death penalty in that case?


I'm not aware of German law, but fighting for a foreign power usually forfeits one's citizenship. She may technically not be a German citizen now, so there is no need for the German government to protect her. Considering the crime was in Iraq, the Iraqi judicial system should handle the case. While fighting for ISIS is about as terrible a crime one can do, the death penalty is amoral. The Iraqi judge should not give the death penalty, but it is ultimately his decision.
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Postby The Empire of Pretantia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:42 pm

The only reason I doubt think she should be executed is because Iraq agreed not to execute minors.
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Postby Galloism » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:43 pm

There seems to be an interesting story in here that I'm curious about.

How does a 15 year old travel to iraq on her own?
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