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Does the 2nd amendment bind the states?

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Where do you stand on gun rights

Pro gun
80
65%
Pro gun control
35
28%
Anti gun
8
7%
 
Total votes : 123

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Saiwania
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Founded: Jun 30, 2008
Ex-Nation

Postby Saiwania » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:29 pm

A Rational Anarchist wrote:Why/how is any of this relevant to the incorporation of the 2nd into the 14th amendment, which OP contends is invalid despite the fact that said incorporation is established SCOTUS precedent?


It is easy enough to conclude that the 14th including every amendment before and after it, does apply to the states if you look at the underlying context. At one time the US federal government was too weak.

Initially the "Bill of Rights" only protected US citizens from the federal government but their state government was still able to oppress them in any number of ways. That did happen and did get out of control and the US Civil War did happen, so eventually the 14th amendment was passed to formally prevent state governments from not respecting what is in the US Constitution and play by the same rules that the US federal government does on certain matters.

What the OP claims used to be true, but isn't anymore because the national circumstances have permanently changed. Just as for example, all US citizens 18 or older can vote now when previously, only land owners could.

If people want to discuss the 2nd amendment, they ought to know why it exists in the first place. I don't think it is impossible if in the far future for example, there isn't an individual right to own firearms anymore, it really depends on what happens. If the 2nd amendment winds up getting too abused or not by the general public over the long term. The US government and law is after all, a reflection of what the American public wants and the people and special interests which happen to be in charge in a given year.

Personally, I'm okay with law abiding civilians having access to shotguns and rifles, and am perhaps open to gun registration. But given how often handguns are used in crime, I do see the merit of more regulations being placed on concealable firearms.
Last edited by Saiwania on Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:53 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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A Rational Anarchist
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Founded: Aug 08, 2017
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Postby A Rational Anarchist » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:57 pm

Saiwania wrote:[
If people want to discuss the 2nd amendment, they ought to know why it exists in the first place. I don't think it is impossible if in the far future for example, there isn't an individual right to own firearms anymore, it really depends on what happens.


Still irrelevant. OP isn't about the merits of the 2nd. It's about the merits of incorporation of the 2nd into the 14th, thereby binding the states to obey the 2nd. OP also appears to think arguing against incorporation is necessary in order to defend gun control measures. OP is problematic in at least two ways:

1) It offers no specific counterargument to McDonald . Since SCOTUS has already decided for incorporation, OPs own theory (flawed as it is, as has been pointed out ad nausem thus far) is less useful. A point-for-point on where SCOTUS specifically went wrong would be more useful.

2) Alito's majority opinion already acknowledged that a constitutional right to keep firearms in the private home incorporated into the 14th does not prevent the individual states from enacting gun control laws concerning areas outside the home. So, OPs contention that incorporation threatens the gun control agenda is bogus. Even with incorporation, states retain a significant power to regulate firearms in the public square.

Whatever the reasons for the second, and whatever its future, OPs concern - that incorporation is the end of gun control - is bogus.

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Grinning Dragon
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Founded: May 16, 2011
Anarchy

Postby Grinning Dragon » Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:58 am

Vovodoco wrote:
Saiwania wrote:So far as current law in the US goes, the 2nd amendment has been extended to protect an individual right to firearm ownership, but the gun anarchists are wrong in that the federal government does have a right to limit the type of weaponry civilians have access to. The federal government effectively can't ban all handguns, shotguns, or rifles, but can place reasonable restrictions or limits on everything else.

Yeah that's fine. Please supply a source for this please.
Saiwania wrote:The 2nd Amendment was mainly about two things: the issue of standing armies and slavery.

The founders of the US didn't want the military to overthrow the federal government on a whim with coups and establish a dictatorship. The idea was that the military would have to disband during peace time, but would get to keep their weapons so they can quickly be reactivated from militias if need be. Virginia was a slave state that was reluctant to join the US, so to convince Virginia to get on board; the 2nd amendment allowed Virginia to establish slave patrols so most of their slave population wouldn't be able to simply run away and escape to a northern state that was abolitionist.


The slave patrol theory is pure bullshit written by a complete fucking hack and dipshit, Thom Hartmann who has ZERO background in anything Constitutional, let alone anything remotely American legal history.
Paul Finkelmann, one of the nation's foremost experts in constitutional law, American legal history debunks Thom Hartmanns bullshit.
2nd Amendment Passed to Protect Slavery? No!
Last edited by Grinning Dragon on Mon Sep 18, 2017 5:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:59 am

Telconi wrote:
A Rational Anarchist wrote:
There's been at least one case in Hawaii that found otherwise, extending 2nd to include resident aliens: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/vol ... a87d6f0045

That was a while ago, so it might be superceeded for all I know. Can't find a SCOTUS case on the topic at the 'mo.

At any rate, it would seem weird to me if 2nd didn't extend to non-citizens, since SCOTUS has extended other basic Constitutional protections in that way (habeus corpus a la Boumediene v. Bush is probably the most famous). At any rate, 2nd says "people" not "citizen."


Resident non-citizens can purchase guns.


Depending on the State, tighter restriction are imposed on the weapon carry by foreigners.
.

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Eisen Wolf Reich
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Postby Eisen Wolf Reich » Mon Sep 18, 2017 12:26 pm

Keshiland wrote:
Thermodolia wrote:If the 1st-4th amendments don't exist then congress can ban any religion, political belief, or any form of speech they want.
They can also use the FBI to raid the homes of political opponents at will. You are arguing for a dictatorship


I am arguing that the STATES do not have to follow the 1st 4 not that CONGRESS does not have to follow the 1st 4.


The SCOTUS ruled that states must follow ALL of the laws of the constitution. ALL of them. ALL. A. L. L.

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Separatist Peoples
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Founded: Feb 17, 2011
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:41 pm

Eisen Wolf Reich wrote:
Keshiland wrote:
I am arguing that the STATES do not have to follow the 1st 4 not that CONGRESS does not have to follow the 1st 4.


The SCOTUS ruled that states must follow ALL of the laws of the constitution. ALL of them. ALL. A. L. L.

That's actually not true. There are at least two amendments that do not apply to the states in their entirety.

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Eisen Wolf Reich
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Postby Eisen Wolf Reich » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:43 pm

Separatist Peoples wrote:
Eisen Wolf Reich wrote:
The SCOTUS ruled that states must follow ALL of the laws of the constitution. ALL of them. ALL. A. L. L.

That's actually not true. There are at least two amendments that do not apply to the states in their entirety.


What to amendments exactly, I am still under the assumption that all of the amendments must be followed?

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Hakons
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Postby Hakons » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:49 pm

Keshiland wrote:
Serrus wrote:It was just the phrasing.
Also, Keshiland, where do you live? just curious.


Canada currently but I only have a 3 year student visa. So im not safe from this hell hole yet


Wait... did you actually flee to Canada after the election?
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Separatist Peoples
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Postby Separatist Peoples » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:50 pm

Eisen Wolf Reich wrote:
Separatist Peoples wrote:That's actually not true. There are at least two amendments that do not apply to the states in their entirety.


What to amendments exactly, I am still under the assumption that all of the amendments must be followed?

States have not been forced to give you a civil case jury trial per the 7th amendment, and the 5th amendment has only been partially enforced on states regarding grand jury indictment.
Last edited by Separatist Peoples on Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:55 pm

Obviously it does otherwise the STATES RIGHTS crowd wouldn't be screaming so loud about California having the temerity to write its own gun laws. Which you'd think would be states' rights in action.
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Keshiland
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Postby Keshiland » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:25 am

Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them
OOC- I am a Prolife Liberal who is Anti Gun, Pro Immigration, Pro UHC, Pro financial aid, and anything that makes children's lives better. I am also eco-friendly.

IC- The Federation of Keshiland stands for freedom and local governance. Requirements for state hood. A territory atleast 1,000 KL and a population of atleast 100k. Our Constitution keeps us free and can only be changed with a 3/4ths ratification of the states.

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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:34 am

Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

Concerts are loud and can cause deafness, therefore concerts should be banned. ----

All the more reason to remove suppressors from the NFA and allow them to be sold as like any other firearm accessory.

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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:35 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

Concerts are loud and can cause deafness, therefore concerts should be banned. ----

All the more reason to remove suppressors from the NFA and allow them to be sold as like any other firearm accessory.


So what does a suppressor do that a proper set of PPE doesn't?
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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:38 am

Vassenor wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Concerts are loud and can cause deafness, therefore concerts should be banned. ----

All the more reason to remove suppressors from the NFA and allow them to be sold as like any other firearm accessory.


So what does a suppressor do that a proper set of PPE doesn't?


Just another additional set of hearing protection. On a few of my bigger bore weapons, I wear insert plugs and muffs. If I had a suppressor for them I could get away with just muffs.
The other is a reduction in environmental noise, like outdoor ranges.

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Keshiland
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Postby Keshiland » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:39 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

Concerts are loud and can cause deafness, therefore concerts should be banned. ----

All the more reason to remove suppressors from the NFA and allow them to be sold as like any other firearm accessory.


Guns are between 140-190 DB concerts are between 100-120 DB nice try
OOC- I am a Prolife Liberal who is Anti Gun, Pro Immigration, Pro UHC, Pro financial aid, and anything that makes children's lives better. I am also eco-friendly.

IC- The Federation of Keshiland stands for freedom and local governance. Requirements for state hood. A territory atleast 1,000 KL and a population of atleast 100k. Our Constitution keeps us free and can only be changed with a 3/4ths ratification of the states.

State count 135

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:39 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
So what does a suppressor do that a proper set of PPE doesn't?


Just another additional set of hearing protection. On a few of my bigger bore weapons, I wear insert plugs and muffs. If I had a suppressor for them I could get away with just muffs.
The other is a reduction in environmental noise, like outdoor ranges.


Definately. PPE protects you but not the others around you. A suppressor on the other hand has this capability.
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Grinning Dragon
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Postby Grinning Dragon » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:41 am

Keshiland wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Concerts are loud and can cause deafness, therefore concerts should be banned. ----

All the more reason to remove suppressors from the NFA and allow them to be sold as like any other firearm accessory.


Guns are between 140-190 DB concerts are between 100-120 DB nice try

Still loud enough for hearing damage. Normal vocal conversation is around 60db.

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Keshiland
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Postby Keshiland » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:44 am

Grinning Dragon wrote:
Keshiland wrote:
Guns are between 140-190 DB concerts are between 100-120 DB nice try

Still loud enough for hearing damage. Normal vocal conversation is around 60db.


Pain starts at 130. Yes concerts are not the best but 1 bullet shot can make you deaf.
OOC- I am a Prolife Liberal who is Anti Gun, Pro Immigration, Pro UHC, Pro financial aid, and anything that makes children's lives better. I am also eco-friendly.

IC- The Federation of Keshiland stands for freedom and local governance. Requirements for state hood. A territory atleast 1,000 KL and a population of atleast 100k. Our Constitution keeps us free and can only be changed with a 3/4ths ratification of the states.

State count 135

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Uxupox
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Postby Uxupox » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 am

Keshiland wrote:
Grinning Dragon wrote:Still loud enough for hearing damage. Normal vocal conversation is around 60db.


Pain starts at 130. Yes concerts are not the best but 1 bullet shot can make you deaf.


i've fired over ten thousands of rounds without hearing protection. am i immune to hearing damage???
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Alvecia
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Postby Alvecia » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 am

Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

If you're gonna ban anything that might cause harm if proper precautions aren't followed, you'll be banning a lot more than guns.

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Gun Manufacturers
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Postby Gun Manufacturers » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:47 am

Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them


Or, I could just support the Hearing Protection Act, or use some form of hearing protection. This is what I use.

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Gun control is like trying to solve drunk driving by making it harder for sober people to own cars.

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DOJ's interpretation of the 2nd Amendment: http://www.justice.gov/sites/default/fi ... -p0126.pdf

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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 am

Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

Um no that's definitely not true. Prolonged exposure to loud noise can definitely cause hearing loss but not to the extent the the majority uses them
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Thermodolia
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Postby Thermodolia » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:53 am

Uxupox wrote:
Keshiland wrote:
Pain starts at 130. Yes concerts are not the best but 1 bullet shot can make you deaf.


i've fired over ten thousands of rounds without hearing protection. am i immune to hearing damage???

I guess we are.
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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:55 am

Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

OR, wear hearing protection.

Its almost like your entire argument is you rationalizing backwards your personal dislike for firearms rather than starting from a rational position and reasoning to a conclusion.
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Keshiland
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Postby Keshiland » Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:09 am

Kernen wrote:
Keshiland wrote:Oh btw guns are louder then is safe for the ears. So just hearing them can cause deafness. Thats another reason to ban them

OR, wear hearing protection.

Its almost like your entire argument is you rationalizing backwards your personal dislike for firearms rather than starting from a rational position and reasoning to a conclusion.


I use logic but everyone says the 2A.
OOC- I am a Prolife Liberal who is Anti Gun, Pro Immigration, Pro UHC, Pro financial aid, and anything that makes children's lives better. I am also eco-friendly.

IC- The Federation of Keshiland stands for freedom and local governance. Requirements for state hood. A territory atleast 1,000 KL and a population of atleast 100k. Our Constitution keeps us free and can only be changed with a 3/4ths ratification of the states.

State count 135

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