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Are the Germans really the bad guys.

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Rusozak
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Postby Rusozak » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:52 pm

Democratic Exodian Territories wrote:
Rusozak wrote:WW1 is under-portrayed in games a movies in general, and in those cases I have yet to see one where Germany or the central powers were portrayed as the obvious bad guys.

As for WW2, well... Nazi Germany was obviously bad, and it's a little bit of a sensitive subject to show the perspective of the same side that was responsible for the death camps, especially if it's a game where you're supposed to kill the enemy of whatever side you're playing. WW2 may not be so relevant to later generations, but to people that went through that shit, be it as soldiers or children in occupied countries, a game where you get to be the Nazis is like someone who lost a loved one on 9/11 seeing a game where you play as Al Qaeda.


The Nazis were very much evil, but most of their soldiers weren't. When it comes to movies, Fury show the Wehrmacht fighting to protect their homeland, both the American and German sides valiant in the final battle, and even a young German soldier showing mercy to the American main character. In Dunkirk, a German soldier who presumably wants nothing to do with the Nazis sneaks into the group, posing as a British soldier and attempting to get to a place in the line. Books like All The Light We Cannot See portray German soldiers as just as patriotic as the Americans, but still maintain the Nazi officers as villains.
Even real-world battles, in particular the Battle for Castle Itter reveal the Wehrmacht even collaborating with U.S. soldiers to fight the Nazi Waffen-SS.So were all the Germans bad? Absolutely not.


This is true. However, when people see a Wehrmacht uniform, they don't think about the occasional act of integrity by German soldiers or the instances where uniformed Germans resisted their Nazi overlords. They see the army that rampaged across Europe and devastated the continent. But then again, I suppose making those figures of resistance more commonly known would be the point of making anything centered on their perspective.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:14 pm

Community Values wrote:

I mean, to be fair I don't think the Allies always followed the rules of war either. Especially the Russians/Soviets.

Sure but I was responding to the claim that the Germans were 'good and honorable' in WW1.

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The Huskar Social Union
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Postby The Huskar Social Union » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:19 pm

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Torrocca wrote:
I'm certain murdering millions of innocent men, women, and children is the exact opposite of being "honorable".


I'm talking about their conduct in the field of combat against the Allies... soldiers vs soldiers

Blatant bullshit, they killed tones of surrendered soldiers, both soviet and allied in numerous massacres, forced starvation and labour until death. They alone killed three and a half million soviet pows because they went out of their way to treat them like shit as policy. Some they executed outright.
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The Sauganash Union
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Postby The Sauganash Union » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:25 pm

In World War I, the most authoritarian, bloodthirsty regime fought for the Allies. Every country in World War I would be considered terrible by today's standards.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:39 pm

The Sauganash Union wrote:In World War I, the most authoritarian, bloodthirsty regime fought for the Allies. Every country in World War I would be considered terrible by today's standards.

I'm assuming you're referring to Russia.

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Letwinist States
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Postby Letwinist States » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:52 pm

Genivaria wrote:I'm assuming you're referring to Russia.


In that case, I would disagree. I would have thought Stalin was so much worse than the late Tsar when it comes to institutionalised violence.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:55 pm

Genivaria wrote:1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.


I would always play as a German soldier in Generals and Soldiers back when that was a big deal. The Germans started off in that game with better weapons, so most starting players picked them.

I think there are plenty of video games which allow the player to play from the perspective of the Germans in WWII.
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The Sauganash Union
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Postby The Sauganash Union » Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:42 pm

Genivaria wrote:
The Sauganash Union wrote:In World War I, the most authoritarian, bloodthirsty regime fought for the Allies. Every country in World War I would be considered terrible by today's standards.

I'm assuming you're referring to Russia.


Yes.
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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:01 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Community Values wrote:I mean, to be fair I don't think the Allies always followed the rules of war either. Especially the Russians/Soviets.

Sure but I was responding to the claim that the Germans were 'good and honorable' in WW1.

I don't think you can say any nation was "good and honorable" in the Great War.
Last edited by Community Values on Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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USS Monitor
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Postby USS Monitor » Sun Sep 17, 2017 4:38 pm

I like German war movies because they tend to be more realistic than Hollywood, and the moral message is generally about how war is horrible rather than trying to glorify a cause.

But the movie industry is dominated by Hollywood, which is run by Americans and caters to the American market because it is based in the US. Between that and the Nazis committing genocide, it's not surprising to have more American protagonists than German ones.
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Torrocca
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Postby Torrocca » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:10 pm

UKCS wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Or that the assassination was only a spark that lit the flame that was more likely then not going to light anyway.

That too.

The war-deniers were right in one aspect; the Germans didn't want war.
That would be the Austrians.


That's quite disingenuous; Germany had been building up for and trying to provoke a war for years. Why do you reckon they gave Austria-Hungary a blank check when it came to the Balkans? Why do you think they'd been spending years building up their navy? Why do you think they decided to immediately invade a neutral country (Belgium) and terrorize the fuck out of it? Why do you think they didn't attempt broker for peace instead of a fight a disastrous, multi-front war until it was very obvious they were going to lose?
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:14 pm

UKCS wrote:
Sovaal wrote:Or that the assassination was only a spark that lit the flame that was more likely then not going to light anyway.

That too.

The war-deniers were right in one aspect; the Germans didn't want war.
That would be the Austrians.

The German high command was most certainly itching for any excuse to fight Russia, as was Kaiser Wilhelm.
And the French REALLY wanted a rematch since the Franco-Prussian war.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Letwinist States
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Postby Letwinist States » Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:24 pm

Torrocca wrote:
That's quite disingenuous; Germany had been building up for and trying to provoke a war for years. Why do you reckon they gave Austria-Hungary a blank check when it came to the Balkans? Why do you think they'd been spending years building up their navy? Why do you think they decided to immediately invade a neutral country (Belgium) and terrorize the fuck out of it? Why do you think they didn't attempt broker for peace instead of a fight a disastrous, multi-front war until it was very obvious they were going to lose?


Interesting points and in fact, Germany did want war. War was the only way the Emperor saw to have a greater influence in Europe.
1. War could consolidate existing and gain new colonies in Africa
2. War could allow for a revision of the naval pact between England and Germany, which only allowed Germany to have a fraction of the ships the British had. Not only was the navy the Emperor's little toy force, he also needed a strong navy to secure the German over-seas colonies.
3. War against Russia was neccessary before their railroads were complete, allowing for massively improved mobilisation.
In fact however, the multi-front war was a part of the equation. Due to the Russia-France entente, Germany was cornered. Russia, however, was extremely weak. They were poor, had no proper leadership and not the infrastructure neccessary to quickly assemble troops. The Germans had something the Russians did not and which won them the eastern front: railroads. To attack France quickly and thenn sweep around to take on Russia, because they would not be ready to interfere anytime soon anyway was a concept which had been alive many decades before WW1, it was never a spur -of-the-moment decision.
The Schlieffen Plan, which saw the military invading Belgium was likewise long in the planning.
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Tanzoria
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Postby Tanzoria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:54 pm

Germany and Austria-Hungary bear sole responsibility for WW1, and as much as war can be divided into 'good guys' and 'bad guys', were the 'bad guys'. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been misled by interwar German revisionist history.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 6:59 pm

Tanzoria wrote:Germany and Austria-Hungary bear sole responsibility for WW1, and as much as war can be divided into 'good guys' and 'bad guys', were the 'bad guys'. Anyone who thinks otherwise has been misled by interwar German revisionist history.

Austria specifically bears a far greater deal of blame, even Hungary opposed war.

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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:00 pm

1) WWI Germany is rarely portrayed as "evil". Read WWI novels, watch WWI movies, many of them may be written from the perspective of the Entente, but rarely do they portray the Central Powers as monsters.
2) Nazi Germany (its leaders in particular) was evil.
3) Literally every WWII game I've played allows you to play as Nazi Germany. I do so very often, in fact, since you tend to be at a long-term disadvantage when doing so, and so you get more of a challenge out of it.
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Postby Dushan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:03 pm

Out of curiosity who of you aspiring hobby historians is familiar with Christopher Clark or John C.G. Röhl and, if so, which of their Books you would recommand?
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Rio Cana
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Postby Rio Cana » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:11 pm

During WW I the German Emperor really seemed not to have all the power which means he was not an absolute monarch.

Although Wilhelm signed the order for German mobilization following pressure from his generals–Germany declared war against Russia and France during the first week of August 1914– he is reported to have said, “You will regret this, gentlemen.”


With World War I under way, the kaiser, as commander in chief of the German armed forces, retained the power to make upper-level changes in military command. Nonetheless, he was largely a shadow monarch during the war, useful to his generals as a public-relations figure who toured the front lines and handed out medals. After 1916, Germany was, in effect, a military dictatorship dominated by two generals, Paul von Hindenburg (1847-1934) and Erich Ludendorff (1865-1937).


Got above quotes from here - http://www.history.com/topics/world-war ... wilhelm-ii
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Postby Kubra » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:17 pm

The Huskar Social Union wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I'm talking about their conduct in the field of combat against the Allies... soldiers vs soldiers

Blatant bullshit, they killed tones of surrendered soldiers, both soviet and allied in numerous massacres, forced starvation and labour until death. They alone killed three and a half million soviet pows because they went out of their way to treat them like shit as policy. Some they executed outright.
and lord knows it's a losing battle for all us to look for the side that summarily shoots prisoners less
in ww1 memoirs a common theme is how surrendered soldiers on both sides had a very good chance of getting offed before they reached the rear
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Democratic Exodian Territories
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Postby Democratic Exodian Territories » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:19 pm

Genivaria wrote:1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.


The only time I'd really be okay with playing Axis would be against the Russians, as Stalin was much worse than Hitler when it came to killing people, he just didn't pick and choose who to kill.

In the Apple app-store game Sky Gamblers: Storm Raiders, where you played as fighter pilots from different countries during WWII, you occasionally had to play as the Axis, but two of the three campaigns made it optional, perhaps due to the fact that you played as the "villains" or that they were just simply harder. Burning Skies, however, a campaign depicting the end of the Third Reich, forced you to complete Luftwaffe levels, including one where you bomb a British convoy and two others where you shoot down American bombers. I was rather squeamish with those levels, but not as much with the "Rising Sun" level on the Pacific Theater levels, where you attack American strongpoints in the Coral Sea as a Japanese pilot. The Nazis may have been coldblooded killers but the Imperial Japanese were just outright barbaric in my views, especially with what they did to the Philippines, my parent's country of origin.
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Tanzoria
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Postby Tanzoria » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:26 pm

Democratic Exodian Territories wrote:
Genivaria wrote:1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.


The only time I'd really be okay with playing Axis would be against the Russians, as Stalin was much worse than Hitler when it came to killing people, he just didn't pick and choose who to kill.

Huh, so you'd be fine playing as the Germans in their war of extermination against the Russian nation?

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Stormwrath
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Postby Stormwrath » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:34 pm

In WW1? No, they aren't portrayed as the bad guys today, but one thing for sure is that they were terrible at not looking like the bad guys (what with the disregard for the rules of warfare and the slick grayish uniforms), which basically gave British propaganda great source material to scare the Allies shitless with.

WW2? Yes. The Allies even touted their opposition to Nazi Germany and its ilk as a moral struggle between good and evil, democracy and authoritarianism, and liberty and oppression.

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Rusozak
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rusozak » Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:36 pm

Stormwrath wrote:In WW1? No, they aren't portrayed as the bad guys today, but one thing for sure is that they were terrible at not looking like the bad guys (what with the disregard for the rules of warfare and the slick grayish uniforms), which basically gave British propaganda great source material to scare the Allies shitless with.

WW2? Yes. The Allies even touted their opposition to Nazi Germany and its ilk as a moral struggle between good and evil, democracy and authoritarianism, and liberty and oppression.


Well, Germany wasn't really any better or worse than anyone else in WW1. Everyone kind of fucked up. As for appearance, anti-German stigma pretty much defined a German soldier as the symbol of militarism.
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Wallenburg
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Postby Wallenburg » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:38 pm

Rusozak wrote:Well, Germany wasn't really any better or worse than anyone else in WW1. Everyone kind of fucked up. As for appearance, anti-German stigma pretty much defined a German soldier as the symbol of militarism.

--INSERT ENEMY COUNTRY HERE--'s foot soldier has always been the symbol of militarism.
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