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Are the Germans really the bad guys.

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Vulkata II
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Are the Germans really the bad guys.

Postby Vulkata II » Sat Sep 16, 2017 6:58 pm

If you're a history nerd and/or love either World War 1 or 2, be it the people, the uniforms, the generals, the battles or etc. then you'll know most of what happened to Germany and the German people(Austria-Hungary included).

But to most of the entertainment industry you start to notice that everyone picks the Allies even if the game was set in World War 1. Why is it that you always have to fight Germans in most World War games?

Sure you could say it's because of censors and of course Germany nowadays does not want to be reminded of Hitler and the Nazis(who would?)but still this is history and if you know history then you know what happened through books, eyewitnesses accounts and reliable searches.

Why do we always have to fight the German/Ottoman empire or Austria-Hungary or Nazi Germany? Why can't we fight as the Ottomen in Gallipoli? Is it so wrong to support the losing side?(Please don't tell me I sound like a Nazi sympathizer.)

In RTS games like Company of Heroes seems to be more forgiving of this with you at least commanding two brothers as they fight the Allies in Operation:Market Garden albeit it's maybe inaccurate but to FPS games, the closes they got is letting you fight as a former Nazi scientist as you kill zombies.

And the movie industry is even worse, the only movie I can think of that's neutral is War Horse letting the viewers show how all sides of the war affected everyone but with recent movies like Dunkirk only shows us that the Nazis are evil and that's it.

Der Untergang on the other hand shows us the final days of Hitler and that's really good and satisfies my arguement here but it's still overshadowed on how many movies there are about the Americans doing this and that, it's gonna get redundant someday(don't get me wrong I love America but there are more countries than them.)

Books seem to be the least guilty since both sides wrote stories, poems, biographys and autobiographys of people in both sides in both wars but I've seen stories that just focus on WW2 with either German defectors or Jewish concentration camp escapists.

So what's your thoughts with my confusing rant?

Why do you think Germany is portrayed as this evil nation in both sides?

Edit:Yes I am aware Nazi Germany did bad. Very, very bad but still there were some okay people in Nazi Germant like Erwin Rommel.
Last edited by Vulkata II on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:01 pm

1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Yami-Chan
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Postby Yami-Chan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:03 pm

They are evil

Trump is ethnic German

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:04 pm

Yami-Chan wrote:They are evil

Trump is ethnic German

Bait post^.
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Trive 38
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Postby Trive 38 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:07 pm

Because SJWs and censorship.
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Yami-Chan
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Postby Yami-Chan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:09 pm

Genivaria wrote:
Yami-Chan wrote:They are evil

Trump is ethnic German

Bait post^.


The wrong Germany led reunification.

Instead of an independent democratic Germany a evil western puppet that was too lenient on it's fascist natives took control

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:09 pm

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Vulkata II
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Postby Vulkata II » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:10 pm

Genivaria wrote:1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.

1)Was it really good?

2)Yeah they were, not all Nazi soldiers and commanders. I heard Rommel was loved by both sides.

3)But it's okay for an American player playing as a Russian Spetnaz kill another American player playing as an American G.I?
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. -George Patton

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future. -Adolf Hitler

Part of the American dream is to live long and die young. Only those Americans who are willing to die for their country are fit to live. -General MacArthur
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:12 pm

-Game developers don't like to make a game in which you shoot your own countrymen, and most games we play in America, are developed in America.

-WWII Germany really was that evil, don't wanna be a Nazi whatsoever. Do wanna shoot them.

-WWI Germans were kinda tarnished by how awful they were in the rematch.
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Telconi
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Postby Telconi » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:13 pm

Yami-Chan wrote:
Genivaria wrote:Bait post^.


The wrong Germany led reunification.

Instead of an independent democratic Germany a evil western puppet that was too lenient on it's fascist natives took control


Ohboyherewego...
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PRO:
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ANTI:
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Vulkata II
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Postby Vulkata II » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:15 pm

Telconi wrote:-Game developers don't like to make a game in which you shoot your own countrymen, and most games we play in America, are developed in America.

-WWII Germany really was that evil, don't wanna be a Nazi whatsoever. Do wanna shoot them.

-WWI Germans were kinda tarnished by how awful they were in the rematch.

-That's true. Wait, didn't Call of Duty did that more than once already?

-I see your point. I did love to shoot them when I played COH2 but they're fun to play as as well.

-No comment.
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. -George Patton

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future. -Adolf Hitler

Part of the American dream is to live long and die young. Only those Americans who are willing to die for their country are fit to live. -General MacArthur
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Albrenia
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Postby Albrenia » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:15 pm

WW1 Germans admittedly have been unfairly splashed with some of the ill-will aimed at the Nazis. I wouldn't say they were the 'bad guys' of WW1, at least not in the sense that the Nazis were.

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:15 pm

Vulkata II wrote:
Genivaria wrote:1. Germany is rarely portrayed as outright 'evil' in a ww1 setting and on the rare occasion they are the director needs to be slapped.
I'd point out that one of the most famous ww1 films is All Quiet on The Western Front which the Nazis banned for being 'anti-war' and it was entirely from the perspective of a German soldier.
2. Yes Nazi Germany actually was that fucking bad.
3. As to video games I'd say it's because game devs are a bit squeamish about the idea of switching the perspective to Germans in ww2 because that inevitably would lead to the player shooting American soldiers.
Personally I'd be okay with playing from an Axis perspective.

1)Was it really good?

2)Yeah they were, not all Nazi soldiers and commanders. I heard Rommel was loved by both sides.

3)But it's okay for an American player playing as a Russian Spetnaz kill another American player playing as an American G.I?

1. It was WW1. There was no such thing as 'good' just 'less bad'.
2. More soldiers than you think were guilty of warcrimes, the Wehrmacht was not the untarnished group that revisionists think.
3. ...wat?
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
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Yami-Chan
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Postby Yami-Chan » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:16 pm

Telconi wrote:
Yami-Chan wrote:
The wrong Germany led reunification.

Instead of an independent democratic Germany a evil western puppet that was too lenient on it's fascist natives took control


Ohboyherewego...


Typical fascist behavior to use alt right 'memes' like that from that Jon Aryan guy.

I hope all of the people like you get shut down when our anarchist revolution begins

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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:17 pm

Yami-Chan wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Ohboyherewego...


Typical fascist behavior to use alt right 'memes' like that from that Jon Aryan guy.

I hope all of the people like you get shut down when our anarchist revolution begins

Try harder.
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
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Vulkata II
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Postby Vulkata II » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:20 pm

Albrenia wrote:WW1 Germans admittedly have been unfairly splashed with some of the ill-will aimed at the Nazis. I wouldn't say they were the 'bad guys' of WW1, at least not in the sense that the Nazis were.

Yeah, actually I just remembered that Valiant Hearts exist. It doesn't bring much to the table but I just rememnered that you play as the French, the Americans, The Belgium, and the Germans.

Genivaria wrote:
Vulkata II wrote:1)Was it really good?

2)Yeah they were, not all Nazi soldiers and commanders. I heard Rommel was loved by both sides.

3)But it's okay for an American player playing as a Russian Spetnaz kill another American player playing as an American G.I?

1. It was WW1. There was no such thing as 'good' just 'less bad'.
2. More soldiers than you think were guilty of warcrimes, the Wehrmacht was not the untarnished group that revisionists think.
3. ...wat?

1)Alrighty then.

2)Yes, I know. They overshadow the ones that didn't do that much bad and I'm aware of the Holocaust, I'm no holocaust denier.

3)It happens right?

Yami-Chan wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Ohboyherewego...


Typical fascist behavior to use alt right 'memes' like that from that Jon Aryan guy.

I hope all of the people like you get shut down when our anarchist revolution begins

Wat?
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. -George Patton

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future. -Adolf Hitler

Part of the American dream is to live long and die young. Only those Americans who are willing to die for their country are fit to live. -General MacArthur
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Furbish Islands
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Postby Furbish Islands » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:21 pm

Winston Churchill once said that history is written by the victors. It is true in this case, and hence, why Germans are considered the bad guys in both world wars. But really the truth is a lot different than at first glance.

In WWI, there are no good or bad guys. Germany did not start the war, but it started because of high tensions before. The house of cards just fell apart, and Germany took the blame.

In WWII, we are all told that there are clear good guys and bad guys. Allies uniting against the threat of Fascism in Europe and Japan. However, it wasn't as 1 sided. Mainly because of the USSR. They killed many milliosn of people, more than Hitler did, and possibly more than all Axis powers combines(depending on sources).

In conclusion: the Germans aren't the bad guys
Last edited by Furbish Islands on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Llanfairpwllgywngyll
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Postby Llanfairpwllgywngyll » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:22 pm

Yami-Chan wrote:
Telconi wrote:
Ohboyherewego...


Typical fascist behavior to use alt right 'memes' like that from that Jon Aryan guy.

I hope all of the people like you get shut down when our anarchist revolution begins

Seems like a mental hospital escapee joined NS.

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Benxboro
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Postby Benxboro » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:26 pm

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:27 pm

Albrenia wrote:WW1 Germans admittedly have been unfairly splashed with some of the ill-will aimed at the Nazis. I wouldn't say they were the 'bad guys' of WW1, at least not in the sense that the Nazis were.

While the Germans of the 1st World War may get a worse rap because of the Nazis that doesn't make them good to be fair. While the Great War is a war of who is the least bad of the bunch Germany definitely comes near the top of the worst. The willingness to go into a war that looked bad on the outset, the destruction of Belgium, and their sometimes horrifying colonial policy before and during the war makes it clear that Germany was not the good guy or even just unfortunately forced by circumstance.
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Postby Hammer Britannia » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:28 pm

WW1: No
WW2: Yes
WW3: Yes
Prussia: Prussia is always the good guy
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Vulkata II
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Postby Vulkata II » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:30 pm

Heloin wrote:
Albrenia wrote:WW1 Germans admittedly have been unfairly splashed with some of the ill-will aimed at the Nazis. I wouldn't say they were the 'bad guys' of WW1, at least not in the sense that the Nazis were.

While the Germans of the 1st World War may get a worse rap because of the Nazis that doesn't make them good to be fair. While the Great War is a war of who is the least bad of the bunch Germany definitely comes near the top of the worst. The willingness to go into a war that looked bad on the outset, the destruction of Belgium, and their sometimes horrifying colonial policy before and during the war makes it clear that Germany was not the good guy or even just unfortunately forced by circumstance.

To be fair, even if they're that bad at least they weren't the first to use gas(though they did develop the dreaded mustard gas.)

If you think the French army is innocent or better yet the Allies from doing bad, they actually used gas.
It is foolish and wrong to mourn the men who died. Rather we should thank God that such men lived. -George Patton

He alone, who owns the youth, gains the future. -Adolf Hitler

Part of the American dream is to live long and die young. Only those Americans who are willing to die for their country are fit to live. -General MacArthur
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:31 pm

Furbish Islands wrote:Winston Churchill once said that history is written by the victors. It is true in this case, and hence, why Germans are considered the bad guys in both world wars. But really the truth is a lot different than at first glance.

In WWI, there are no good or bad guys. Germany did not start the war, but it started because of high tensions before. The house of cards just fell apart, and Germany took the blame.

In WWII, we are all told that there are clear good guys and bad guys. Allies uniting against the threat of Fascism in Europe and Japan. However, it wasn't as 1 sided. Mainly because of the USSR. They killed many milliosn of people, more than Hitler did, and possibly more than all Axis powers combines(depending on sources).

In conclusion: the Germans aren't the bad guys

As far as I'm concerned the one who started the war was Austria-Hungary who insisted on 'punishing' Serbia.
When Austria gave an unreasonable ultimatum to Serbia, Serbia agreed to all but one of the demands.
This was the Kaiser's response.
A brilliant solution—and in barely 48 hours! This is more than could have been expected. A great moral victory for Vienna; but with it every pretext for war falls to the ground, and [the Ambassador] Giesl had better have stayed quietly at Belgrade. On this document, I should never have given orders for mobilisation.[44]

It was the Austrian Emperor who dragged everyone else into war.
Last edited by Genivaria on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Genivaria
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Postby Genivaria » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:33 pm

Heloin wrote:
Albrenia wrote:WW1 Germans admittedly have been unfairly splashed with some of the ill-will aimed at the Nazis. I wouldn't say they were the 'bad guys' of WW1, at least not in the sense that the Nazis were.

While the Germans of the 1st World War may get a worse rap because of the Nazis that doesn't make them good to be fair. While the Great War is a war of who is the least bad of the bunch Germany definitely comes near the top of the worst. The willingness to go into a war that looked bad on the outset, the destruction of Belgium, and their sometimes horrifying colonial policy before and during the war makes it clear that Germany was not the good guy or even just unfortunately forced by circumstance.

Yes indeed let's not forget that the Rape of Belgium happened.
Throughout the beginning of the war, the German army engaged in numerous atrocities against the civilian population of Belgium, including the destruction of civilian property; 6,000 Belgians were killed, and 17,700 died during expulsion, deportation, imprisonment, or a death sentence by court.[4] 25,000 homes and other buildings in 837 communities were destroyed in 1914 alone, and 1.5 million Belgians (20% of the entire population) fled from the invading German army.[5]:13
General Sherman did nothing wrong, fact.
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Las Palmeras
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Postby Las Palmeras » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:37 pm

Furbish Islands wrote:Winston Churchill once said that history is written by the victors. It is true in this case, and hence, why Germans are considered the bad guys in both world wars. But really the truth is a lot different than at first glance.


This is ignoring the butthurt Clean Wehrmacht revisionism that very quickly popped up in West Germany in the post-war years. I'd very much wager losers can write history.

Furbish Islands wrote:In WWII, we are all told that there are clear good guys and bad guys. Allies uniting against the threat of Fascism in Europe and Japan. However, it wasn't as 1 sided. Mainly because of the USSR. They killed many milliosn of people, more than Hitler did, and possibly more than all Axis powers combines(depending on sources).

Stalin definitely didn't care about the human misery his industrializations plans caused, however you're forgetting that even offing millions and forcing many to work was a means to an end. His plans were to strengthen his country and support violent revolution worldwide. That wasn't good at all, but it was still all means to ends. For the Nazis mass murder was an ideological end in itself and what they racked up in their few years was likely only the beginning of what they had in mind for "subhuman" populations.

Furbish Islands wrote:In conclusion: the Germans aren't the bad guys


Countries act on national self-interest, that's always morally grey area. The Germany during WW2 was near-black, at best.
Last edited by Las Palmeras on Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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