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Idea from NS: -> Serious Idea for UNSC Reform?

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Kahanistan
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Idea from NS: -> Serious Idea for UNSC Reform?

Postby Kahanistan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:10 am

It's well known that the UN is plagued by numerous difficulties. The task of promoting international peace and goodwill is not an easy one.

The United Nations, like the NS-verse, is divided into regions. The five UN regions are the Asia-Pacific Group (of which China is a member), the Eastern European Group (the smallest, and of which Russia is a member), the African Group (the largest), the Latin American and Caribbean Group, and the Western Europe and Others Group (which, not content with containing Britain and France, includes the United States!)

Clearly this is an inequitable distribution of power. While two UN regions, including the largest of them in terms of member states, have no permanent representation in the Security Council, the second smallest UN region has THREE vetoes!

While Article 27 section 3 (the "veto clause") reads in the English version as "Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting." vetoes by parties to disputes have been honoured and constitute perhaps the most outrageous category of abuse of the veto.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-c ... etoes.html This link is outdated as it does not reference vetoes cast after 2009 (the infamous Russian veto of a resolution censuring Russia for its invasion of Crimea in 2014 or so doesn't show here) and while I'm intentionally ignoring my own country's infamous habit of abusing the veto to cover Israeli excesses as I don't want to turn this into an Israel thread and am focusing on vetoes cast by parties to disputes, the US search of the Nicaraguan Ambassador's home in Panama in violation of international law was referred to the Security Council... and vetoed. In fact 1984-1986 record several US vetoes cast in response to Nicaraguan complaints including two where the International Court of Justice had already ruled in Nicaragua's favour! The United States is not a force for international security and stability, stopping only resolutions that would promote violations of international law, but a corrupt admin ruthlessly exploiting every means to avoid any accountability to the greater global community.

Some advocates of UNSC reform call for adding the G4 (Germany, Brazil, India and Japan) to the permanent membership but 1. Adding Germany will give the WEOG *FOUR* vetoes! Not since 1954 when the Soviet Union sought to join NATO was the veto faced with the prospect of such concentration. 2. While adding Brazil will give the Latin American group a veto it will do nothing for the largest, the African Group. 3. Adding India and Japan will only strengthen the Asia-Pacific group at the expense of the other regions. In other words the same mess with nine vetoes instead of five and Africa still gets shit on.

My idea for reform is a version of the NS system where each region elects its own delegates. We can do away with the permanent membership of the Council altogether and replace them with regional delegates who represent their regions, NOT their nations, who would be elected every five or ten years. Each region would have its own protocols for choosing and recalling their delegate. A nation that is leaning fascist will be less likely to get elected, unlike the current messup that has no protection against, for example, the havoc a permanent member that just elected a fascist president could wreak. Yes, the idea came from NS (hence the comparison above of the permanent members to extremely corrupt moderators who can't be canned) and a lot of people might think that alone makes it a bad idea for serious reform of international policy but at least international UN bodies could do their jobs without being hamstrung by conflicts with veto-wielders with no way to remove them.

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Sovaal
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Postby Sovaal » Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:18 am

Kahanistan wrote:It's well known that the UN is plagued by numerous difficulties. The task of promoting international peace and goodwill is not an easy one.

The United Nations, like the NS-verse, is divided into regions. The five UN regions are the Asia-Pacific Group (of which China is a member), the Eastern European Group (the smallest, and of which Russia is a member), the African Group (the largest), the Latin American and Caribbean Group, and the Western Europe and Others Group (which, not content with containing Britain and France, includes the United States!)

Clearly this is an inequitable distribution of power. While two UN regions, including the largest of them in terms of member states, have no permanent representation in the Security Council, the second smallest UN region has THREE vetoes!

While Article 27 section 3 (the "veto clause") reads in the English version as "Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting." vetoes by parties to disputes have been honoured and constitute perhaps the most outrageous category of abuse of the veto.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-c ... etoes.html This link is outdated as it does not reference vetoes cast after 2009 (the infamous Russian veto of a resolution censuring Russia for its invasion of Crimea in 2014 or so doesn't show here) and while I'm intentionally ignoring my own country's infamous habit of abusing the veto to cover Israeli excesses as I don't want to turn this into an Israel thread and am focusing on vetoes cast by parties to disputes, the US search of the Nicaraguan Ambassador's home in Panama in violation of international law was referred to the Security Council... and vetoed. In fact 1984-1986 record several US vetoes cast in response to Nicaraguan complaints including two where the International Court of Justice had already ruled in Nicaragua's favour! The United States is not a force for international security and stability, stopping only resolutions that would promote violations of international law, but a corrupt admin ruthlessly exploiting every means to avoid any accountability to the greater global community.

Some advocates of UNSC reform call for adding the G4 (Germany, Brazil, India and Japan) to the permanent membership but 1. Adding Germany will give the WEOG *FOUR* vetoes! Not since 1954 when the Soviet Union sought to join NATO was the veto faced with the prospect of such concentration. 2. While adding Brazil will give the Latin American group a veto it will do nothing for the largest, the African Group. 3. Adding India and Japan will only strengthen the Asia-Pacific group at the expense of the other regions. In other words the same mess with nine vetoes instead of five and Africa still gets shit on.

My idea for reform is a version of the NS system where each region elects its own delegates. We can do away with the permanent membership of the Council altogether and replace them with regional delegates who represent their regions, NOT their nations, who would be elected every five or ten years. Each region would have its own protocols for choosing and recalling their delegate. A nation that is leaning fascist will be less likely to get elected, unlike the current messup that has no protection against, for example, the havoc a permanent member that just elected a fascist president could wreak. Yes, the idea came from NS (hence the comparison above of the permanent members to extremely corrupt moderators who can't be canned) and a lot of people might think that alone makes it a bad idea for serious reform of international policy but at least international UN bodies could do their jobs without being hamstrung by conflicts with veto-wielders with no way to remove them.

When you get the most powerful military powers together in a room of course they're going to coverup the shady shit they've done.
Most of the time I have no idea what the hell I'm doing or talking about.

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Calladan
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Postby Calladan » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:46 pm

Kahanistan wrote:It's well known that the UN is plagued by numerous difficulties. The task of promoting international peace and goodwill is not an easy one.

The United Nations, like the NS-verse, is divided into regions. The five UN regions are the Asia-Pacific Group (of which China is a member), the Eastern European Group (the smallest, and of which Russia is a member), the African Group (the largest), the Latin American and Caribbean Group, and the Western Europe and Others Group (which, not content with containing Britain and France, includes the United States!)

Clearly this is an inequitable distribution of power. While two UN regions, including the largest of them in terms of member states, have no permanent representation in the Security Council, the second smallest UN region has THREE vetoes!

While Article 27 section 3 (the "veto clause") reads in the English version as "Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting." vetoes by parties to disputes have been honoured and constitute perhaps the most outrageous category of abuse of the veto.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-c ... etoes.html This link is outdated as it does not reference vetoes cast after 2009 (the infamous Russian veto of a resolution censuring Russia for its invasion of Crimea in 2014 or so doesn't show here) and while I'm intentionally ignoring my own country's infamous habit of abusing the veto to cover Israeli excesses as I don't want to turn this into an Israel thread and am focusing on vetoes cast by parties to disputes, the US search of the Nicaraguan Ambassador's home in Panama in violation of international law was referred to the Security Council... and vetoed. In fact 1984-1986 record several US vetoes cast in response to Nicaraguan complaints including two where the International Court of Justice had already ruled in Nicaragua's favour! The United States is not a force for international security and stability, stopping only resolutions that would promote violations of international law, but a corrupt admin ruthlessly exploiting every means to avoid any accountability to the greater global community.

Some advocates of UNSC reform call for adding the G4 (Germany, Brazil, India and Japan) to the permanent membership but 1. Adding Germany will give the WEOG *FOUR* vetoes! Not since 1954 when the Soviet Union sought to join NATO was the veto faced with the prospect of such concentration. 2. While adding Brazil will give the Latin American group a veto it will do nothing for the largest, the African Group. 3. Adding India and Japan will only strengthen the Asia-Pacific group at the expense of the other regions. In other words the same mess with nine vetoes instead of five and Africa still gets shit on.

My idea for reform is a version of the NS system where each region elects its own delegates. We can do away with the permanent membership of the Council altogether and replace them with regional delegates who represent their regions, NOT their nations, who would be elected every five or ten years. Each region would have its own protocols for choosing and recalling their delegate. A nation that is leaning fascist will be less likely to get elected, unlike the current messup that has no protection against, for example, the havoc a permanent member that just elected a fascist president could wreak. Yes, the idea came from NS (hence the comparison above of the permanent members to extremely corrupt moderators who can't be canned) and a lot of people might think that alone makes it a bad idea for serious reform of international policy but at least international UN bodies could do their jobs without being hamstrung by conflicts with veto-wielders with no way to remove them.


Remove the veto. That is the only thing that will stop the US and Russia from screwing up the world. Russia will not be able to hide from the consequences of its actions, and Israel will not be able to hide behind the US the next time it commits a war crime or other atrocity.

And while I know the immediate response will be "Won't that make it overly political?" - if that is your only question then you are not paying attention, because right now it is entirely political and really, nothing much will change except it will actually get stuff done.
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Cresenthia
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Founded: Mar 03, 2015
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Postby Cresenthia » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:13 am

Kahanistan wrote:It's well known that the UN is plagued by numerous difficulties. The task of promoting international peace and goodwill is not an easy one.

The United Nations, like the NS-verse, is divided into regions. The five UN regions are the Asia-Pacific Group (of which China is a member), the Eastern European Group (the smallest, and of which Russia is a member), the African Group (the largest), the Latin American and Caribbean Group, and the Western Europe and Others Group (which, not content with containing Britain and France, includes the United States!)

Clearly this is an inequitable distribution of power. While two UN regions, including the largest of them in terms of member states, have no permanent representation in the Security Council, the second smallest UN region has THREE vetoes!

While Article 27 section 3 (the "veto clause") reads in the English version as "Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting." vetoes by parties to disputes have been honoured and constitute perhaps the most outrageous category of abuse of the veto.

https://www.globalpolicy.org/security-c ... etoes.html This link is outdated as it does not reference vetoes cast after 2009 (the infamous Russian veto of a resolution censuring Russia for its invasion of Crimea in 2014 or so doesn't show here) and while I'm intentionally ignoring my own country's infamous habit of abusing the veto to cover Israeli excesses as I don't want to turn this into an Israel thread and am focusing on vetoes cast by parties to disputes, the US search of the Nicaraguan Ambassador's home in Panama in violation of international law was referred to the Security Council... and vetoed. In fact 1984-1986 record several US vetoes cast in response to Nicaraguan complaints including two where the International Court of Justice had already ruled in Nicaragua's favour! The United States is not a force for international security and stability, stopping only resolutions that would promote violations of international law, but a corrupt admin ruthlessly exploiting every means to avoid any accountability to the greater global community.

Some advocates of UNSC reform call for adding the G4 (Germany, Brazil, India and Japan) to the permanent membership but 1. Adding Germany will give the WEOG *FOUR* vetoes! Not since 1954 when the Soviet Union sought to join NATO was the veto faced with the prospect of such concentration. 2. While adding Brazil will give the Latin American group a veto it will do nothing for the largest, the African Group. 3. Adding India and Japan will only strengthen the Asia-Pacific group at the expense of the other regions. In other words the same mess with nine vetoes instead of five and Africa still gets shit on.

My idea for reform is a version of the NS system where each region elects its own delegates. We can do away with the permanent membership of the Council altogether and replace them with regional delegates who represent their regions, NOT their nations, who would be elected every five or ten years. Each region would have its own protocols for choosing and recalling their delegate. A nation that is leaning fascist will be less likely to get elected, unlike the current messup that has no protection against, for example, the havoc a permanent member that just elected a fascist president could wreak. Yes, the idea came from NS (hence the comparison above of the permanent members to extremely corrupt moderators who can't be canned) and a lot of people might think that alone makes it a bad idea for serious reform of international policy but at least international UN bodies could do their jobs without being hamstrung by conflicts with veto-wielders with no way to remove them.

Firstly, there are already 10 elected members. Even if the UN removed the veto of the P5 members, or even removed them from their permanent seats, they would still likely be elected to SC positions. And anyway, the UN theoretically has a way to move forwards when the Security Council is hamstrung, although, with the dubious exception of Korea, it hasn't really united anyone for peace.

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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:14 am

This is ridiculous. Let's not talk about any sort of reform until the Flood are completely exterminated.
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The East Marches II
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Postby The East Marches II » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:20 am

Bakery Hill wrote:This is ridiculous. Let's not talk about any sort of reform until the Flood are completely exterminated.


>when you get ninja'd by an even better post

You are a hero Bakery.

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Bakery Hill
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Postby Bakery Hill » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:36 am

The East Marches II wrote:
Bakery Hill wrote:This is ridiculous. Let's not talk about any sort of reform until the Flood are completely exterminated.


>when you get ninja'd by an even better post

You are a hero Bakery.

It seems that these jokers up here haven't heard that the Politburo has unanimously decided upon the temporary suspension of social demands and a Popular Front against Floodism. I am merely passing along their judgement as a good party cadre. We must Combat Liberalism everywhere we find it.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:39 am

Like the us, china, or Russia will give up the veto. And thank god for that.
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Community Values
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Postby Community Values » Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:41 am

Why not just get two representatives sent from every government, and another house that's based on the population of the country?
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Great Nepal
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Postby Great Nepal » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:12 am

This assumes the 'regions' in real would have some sort of common interest, and have unified internal structures to serve as appropriate substitutes for US-UK-France-Russia-China group. That's not really the case.


Calladan wrote:Remove the veto. That is the only thing that will stop the US and Russia from screwing up the world. Russia will not be able to hide from the consequences of its actions, and Israel will not be able to hide behind the US the next time it commits a war crime or other atrocity.

And while I know the immediate response will be "Won't that make it overly political?" - if that is your only question then you are not paying attention, because right now it is entirely political and really, nothing much will change except it will actually get stuff done.

And thus UN becomes modern league of nations. Most of these reform UN security council ideas approach the issue from the wrong end based on idea that nations are somehow accountable to UN and thus by removing veto from members everyone will be held accountable, instead of reality where doing so would leave UN publicly worthless paper tiger.
Currently resolutions passed by security council hold weight because they represent agreement (active or tacit) between most influential nations as it provides an outlet valve at effort level below public defiance thus ensuring the resolutions are adhered to. Lacking that outlet, a resolution against Russia wouldn't somehow change Russian behaviour, it'd merely point out that UNSC resolutions don't need to be adhered to because Russia, China and nations in their sphere of influence would publicly flaunt it. Same if Israel is sanctioned, US and nations under its sphere would publicly flaunt the resolution reducing strength of such resolutions going forward.
Last edited by Great Nepal on Sun Nov 29, 1995 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.


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Risottia
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Postby Risottia » Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:46 am

Kahanistan wrote:The United Nations, like the NS-verse, is divided into regions.


You know those "regions" have no official status, and that their borders aren't exactly definite, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Na ... nal_Groups

Anyway, I think we should merely eliminate the permanent SC membership and require that every SC resolution is passed with a 2/3 supermajority. And then the SC members should rotate, with the GA voting with a 4/5 supermajority requirement a blocked list of 5 new entries every year. Every SC member stays 3 years and then has to step down for one year at least.
Last edited by Risottia on Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Tombradya
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Postby Tombradya » Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:07 am

The UN is a misnomer as it ought to be called United Countries, not Nations. Althought the "United" bit can be disputed.

The biggest issue for me is that all countries are not equal. A dictatorship should not be equated with a liberal democracy. Brunei, Equatorial Guinea, North Korea and Zimbabwe should not be able to outvote Sweden, Germany and Canada.

The veto system is really a good thing. The only thing I would change there is taking it from France and giving it to India. France is a basket case and should not be considered a world power anymore. Europe is heavily overrepresented in so many international organizations. Taking one of their permanent seats away would go a long way to restoring balance.

Alternatively, the UN could be disbanded since it doesn't really function anyway.
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Kahanistan
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Postby Kahanistan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 2:55 pm

http://www.un.org/en/sections/un-charte ... full-text/ UN Charter in its entirety. Article 27 specifically requires parties to disputes brought to the Council to abstain from voting but as I posted numerous examples there seems to be no shortage of vetoes by parties to such disputes and the US seems to be the worst offender with Russia a close second.

With such flagrant disregard for the rules set forth in their own charter (unless the Russian version of the charter says something completely different) it's clear that those nations that have taken it upon themselves to police the world and arrogated the exclusive right to nuclear arms are as corrupt as any other entity that obtains nearly unlimited power and authority. I wonder if doing away with the Council altogether and transferring responsibility for international security and admission of new member states to the more representative General Assembly where the African Group is quite powerful is a good idea.

Was not really sure about regions having common interests like GN's point though maybe the regions don't have to necessarily be the five UN regional groupings; groups of nations that have common interests like the Arab League or European Union might be more appropriate regions for developing authorities for international governance.


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