The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

[Likar]

The thing I have thought a lot about whether the concept of God is in reality a Tyrant. See if you can follow my thinking.

First, (according to Christian beliefs), your born a sinner. Therefore, even before you move or have a coherent thought, you are doomed to Hell. Does that seem reasonable ? To damn a poor infant, who is incapable of doing anything to Hell ?
Next, God ASSUMES you will obey Him . Excuse me ? Why should a reasonable God assume people will obey Him ? I could see if they agreed with Him and committed there lives to Him. But is it reasonable or logical for him to assume that everyone will obey Him ?
Next, the concept of Hell. Is it reasonable to reason that God can create you, but He can't destroy you ? Human beings are limited in what they can do and can't do. God, however, is not. If he can create you, can't he destroy you ? Can't he, in a sense, kill you ? Why torture someone for EVER ? We don't torture people forever ( nor could we) . Doesn't testify to the truth, that God is an unreasonable Tyrant that get's his jollies by seeing us suffer for ever. Is there any time limit on Hell ? And think about this. Some Christian can come along and say "You will burn in Hell for a MILLION YEARS ! Enjoy the fierce flames of Hell !! HAHAHAA.." But if there is a Hell, and you will suffer for eternity, shouldn't his response be 'Please, O Dear God, don't choose that place ! Don't ! I would trade a year of my life, no, five years to keep you away from Hell ! Please don't choose Hell !!!!"
So is God a Tyrant or what ?

Yes I am Muslim, and God is what you can consider somewhat autocratic. Stoning and human right abuses are bad, but in the holy Quran there is still much that promotes peace

[Benuty]

You have certainly gone on a nonstop thread creation train ride these last few days it seems.

[The South Falls]

Well, first this thread seems slightly bloggy. Clear that with mods, maybe? And with the number of people punished in the Bible, I still think that God is good, to good people. But to bad, yes, he is a tyrant.

You have certainly gone on a nonstop thread creation train ride these last few days it seems.

No doubt. And all of those threads have been bloggy.

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

Monasteries have to pay property taxes. Donations to them go to that, and construction and upkeep of the monastery. Nothing more. Monks don't receive any income, and in the Orthodox Church, monasteries often don't even have utilities except for the visitors.

I wouldn't think so. Usually, when donations are given to an order it goes to the order, and not the individual brothers. The orders would then use that donation to further spread their faith (like buying food to give to the poor, for example).

Orthodox orders generally keep to themselves and tend the monastery affairs, Catholic ones are more active with missions, even running hospitals, orphanages and homes for the aged. The only Anglican order I'm familiar with is St. John's Ambulance. Fyi Salvation Army engages in humanitarian and disaster relief work but they deny the necessity of baptism so I don't consider them particularly Christian.

Do arm's length charity, or do it through an organisation / religious order, is still obeying Our Lord's command!

[Benuty]

You know I never have mentioned this, but there was a point I almost considered converting to Catholicism during one of my "lack of belief" phases when I was really young. I do wonder what would have gone down if I did go down that path in some alternate timeline.

[Tarsonis]

You know I never have mentioned this, but there was a point I almost considered converting to Catholicism during one of my "lack of belief" phases when I was really young. I do wonder what would have gone down if I did go down that path in some alternate timeline.

It’s never too late.

[Northern Davincia]

You know I never have mentioned this, but there was a point I almost considered converting to Catholicism during one of my "lack of belief" phases when I was really young. I do wonder what would have gone down if I did go down that path in some alternate timeline.

I'm sure you'll come around again. :^)

[Benuty]

Well, first this thread seems slightly bloggy. Clear that with mods, maybe? And with the number of people punished in the Bible, I still think that God is good, to good people. But to bad, yes, he is a tyrant.

No doubt. And all of those threads have been bloggy.

Do you realize that some of your family, your brother, mother, father and sister are screaming in torment in Hell ? You have no problem with that ?

Okay, this all depends on what the various sects believe in with regards to a negative afterlife. Some believe your soul gets completely obliterated ie Jehovah Witnesses while others believe something far worse is in store for you i.e the Mormons. Of course, they also tend to be a bit more lenient since their heaven has multiple layers of acceptance you don't even have to be Mormon or even a weak Christian to get into one of the heavens. This all, of course, assumes the fact hell is objectively real as you seem to believe, but we do not know for sure.

[Togeria]

For me it's a matter of perspective, not a Christian( Shia myself), but just using your example of the infant I myself have always been under the assumption that everything is a test. I won't say it's messed up by those beliefs to be doomed to hell, but what purpose would you have to try if you're just guaranteed a spot to heaven? I believe in this view it gives more motivation to try and do right since you're place by him isn't assured.

As well as the concept of hell, I believe it too is to give an example. He could simply destroy us, but I don't believe we would learn from it. Even if for example we went to hell for a time before destruction it wouldn't carry the same weight as just torture. Death or the absence of existence isn't too much of a deterrent if any to some people, but the thought of constant suffering, of being placed in a position of constant pain with and having to live though it for eternity, can be.

I won't say that Allah is or isn't peaceful, for being of that magnitude I don't think I could begin to comprehend their reasoning. But I wouldn't say they're a tyrant.

[The South Falls]

Well, first this thread seems slightly bloggy. Clear that with mods, maybe? And with the number of people punished in the Bible, I still think that God is good, to good people. But to bad, yes, he is a tyrant.

No doubt. And all of those threads have been bloggy.

Do you realize that some of your family, your brother, mother, father and sister are screaming in torment in Hell ? You have no problem with that ?

I don't have a brother, and the rest of those are alive. And, if they did something worthy of it, then yes, I have no problem with it.

[Benuty]

Do you realize that some of your family, your brother, mother, father and sister are screaming in torment in Hell ? You have no problem with that ?

I don't have a brother, and the rest of those are alive. And, if they did something worthy of it, then yes, I have no problem with it.

I mean that is pretty damn harsh, but the OP states this so matter of factly it kind of hinders the debate. That is if there is a debate to be had here at all.

[Farnhamia]

The thing I have thought a lot about whether the concept of God is in reality a Tyrant. See if you can follow my thinking.

First, (according to Christian beliefs), your born a sinner. Therefore, even before you move or have a coherent thought, you are doomed to Hell. Does that seem reasonable ? To damn a poor infant, who is incapable of doing anything to Hell ?
Next, God ASSUMES you will obey Him . Excuse me ? Why should a reasonable God assume people will obey Him ? I could see if they agreed with Him and committed there lives to Him. But is it reasonable or logical for him to assume that everyone will obey Him ?
Next, the concept of Hell. Is it reasonable to reason that God can create you, but He can't destroy you ? Human beings are limited in what they can do and can't do. God, however, is not. If he can create you, can't he destroy you ? Can't he, in a sense, kill you ? Why torture someone for EVER ? We don't torture people forever ( nor could we) . Doesn't testify to the truth, that God is an unreasonable Tyrant that get's his jollies by seeing us suffer for ever. Is there any time limit on Hell ? And think about this. Some Christian can come along and say "You will burn in Hell for a MILLION YEARS ! Enjoy the fierce flames of Hell !! HAHAHAA.." But if there is a Hell, and you will suffer for eternity, shouldn't his response be 'Please, O Dear God, don't choose that place ! Don't ! I would trade a year of my life, no, five years to keep you away from Hell ! Please don't choose Hell !!!!"
So is God a Tyrant or what ?

Rolled up into the Christian Discussion Thread.

[Benuty]

Not surprisingly the thread was merged by one of the mods in their infinite power.

[Togeria]

I was wondering why I was seeing the TCD, despite never even strolling around this corner.

[The South Falls]

I was wondering why I was seeing the TCD, despite never even strolling around this corner.

So was I. I left him a salad

I don't have a brother, and the rest of those are alive. And, if they did something worthy of it, then yes, I have no problem with it.

I mean that is pretty damn harsh, but the OP states this so matter of factly it kind of hinders the debate. That is if there is a debate to be had here at all.

.
It is extremely harsh, but I beleive it. I also think that anyone who is worthy of heaven, through their good acts and absence or lack of bad acts, should get there, regardless of religions.

[Benuty]

For me it's a matter of perspective, not a Christian( Shia myself), but just using your example of the infant I myself have always been under the assumption that everything is a test. I won't say it's messed up by those beliefs to be doomed to hell, but what purpose would you have to try if you're just guaranteed a spot to heaven? I believe in this view it gives more motivation to try and do right since you're place by him isn't assured.

As well as the concept of hell, I believe it too is to give an example. He could simply destroy us, but I don't believe we would learn from it. Even if for example we went to hell for a time before destruction it wouldn't carry the same weight as just torture. Death or the absence of existence isn't too much of a deterrent if any to some people, but the thought of constant suffering, of being placed in a position of constant pain with and having to live though it for eternity, can be.

I won't say that Allah is or isn't peaceful, for being of that magnitude I don't think I could begin to comprehend their reasoning. But I wouldn't say they're a tyrant.

Ah, but Islam is more moral. In Christianity it is less moral. It really becomes a question: Do you accept Jesus Christ as God ? Yes-your going to Heaven. No-your going to Hell to suffer forever. But I have a problem with the idea od Hell.
I'll give you one. Suppose that a person is a Psychopath. He or she has no feelings of empathy. They can order your execution and have no trouble falling asleep. But suppose one was a serial killer and does not feel guilty. He or she sees no reason why they would have to pray to Jesus for forgiveness.
By Christian doctrine, he or she is going to burn in Hell. But wait..he or she has a problem with the frontal cortex. It is damaged in a way. It is because of that that he doesn't have a normal feelings of empathy. So would God be wrong to send he or she to Hell ? That's the question I have .

Is it really a question of which religion is more moral? I mean negative punishment in the afterlife is negative punishment, but there are varying degrees, and reasons for it. Sure you have some groups fine with the fire, and brimstone hell for the sake of a souls torment being used as a lesson for others. I think you are kind of overestimating how many Christians are eagerly willing to go along with that idea.

[Lost Memories]

I am currently converting myself into the Catholic church, so is there anyone who has tips for it (i have a bible app on my phone btw where i read the bible and also can learn more about the Catholic Church)

Participating in the mass is the first step of everything, from there you can both contact a priest for any questions, and also get a feel of how things run during a celebration.
Most Catholics have gone through catechism when they were kids, a lot of basics are taught there, many of those basics aren't directly visible from just reading the bible alone, keep in mind Catholicism relies also on tradition to complement the bible, and tradition is better obtained by having contact with other people(which is also why mass, and being part of a community, is important). So if you're converting now, searching up about catechism, or asking a priest about it, would be a good way to get really started.

[Nioya]

]

I meant what does the church say about the eucharist having healing properties?

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

Thank you! I would like to know how to attend a church (i live in a town where the Catholic church is like 12 miles (20 kilometres) away, i live in the Netherlands, while i am not still Christened), and how i can practice the Catholic faith and i know that Catholics do fast from Ash wednesday until Easter, so i also want to know how it works, and what i am not allowed to eat/drink during this period

In Roman Catholic tradition, every friday during lenten season you have to abstain from meat and fast by eating half-portion: instead of your normal 3 meals/day, on fridays eat 1 full meal and a half-meal from midnight-to-midnight. Wine in moderate amounts is allowed.

How acceptable is it to express political views at Church? ...

According to the Apostle,

Titus 3
"8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.
10 A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

[Togeria]

For me it's a matter of perspective, not a Christian( Shia myself), but just using your example of the infant I myself have always been under the assumption that everything is a test. I won't say it's messed up by those beliefs to be doomed to hell, but what purpose would you have to try if you're just guaranteed a spot to heaven? I believe in this view it gives more motivation to try and do right since you're place by him isn't assured.

As well as the concept of hell, I believe it too is to give an example. He could simply destroy us, but I don't believe we would learn from it. Even if for example we went to hell for a time before destruction it wouldn't carry the same weight as just torture. Death or the absence of existence isn't too much of a deterrent if any to some people, but the thought of constant suffering, of being placed in a position of constant pain with and having to live though it for eternity, can be.

I won't say that Allah is or isn't peaceful, for being of that magnitude I don't think I could begin to comprehend their reasoning. But I wouldn't say they're a tyrant.

Ah, but Islam is more moral. In Christianity it is less moral. It really becomes a question: Do you accept Jesus Christ as God ? Yes-your going to Heaven. No-your going to Hell to suffer forever. But I have a problem with the idea od Hell.
I'll give you one. Suppose that a person is a Psychopath. He or she has no feelings of empathy. They can order your execution and have no trouble falling asleep. But suppose one was a serial killer and does not feel guilty. He or she sees no reason why they would have to pray to Jesus for forgiveness.
By Christian doctrine, he or she is going to burn in Hell. But wait..he or she has a problem with the frontal cortex. It is damaged in a way. It is because of that that he doesn't have a normal feelings of empathy. So would God be wrong to send he or she to Hell ? That's the question I have .

A matter of perspective. One is judged based off their actions and their intentions and from this perspective than yeah the person would be condemned to hell. Though the person may have been damaged in some way or been born without the ability to feel emotions like empathy and sympathy they still went ahead with their actions. Despite their lack of empathy they still more likely than not know what they did is wrong in the eyes of Allah, it just didn't matter to them. It's different from a person who say killed me in defense or by accident.

[Luminesa]

For me it's a matter of perspective, not a Christian( Shia myself), but just using your example of the infant I myself have always been under the assumption that everything is a test. I won't say it's messed up by those beliefs to be doomed to hell, but what purpose would you have to try if you're just guaranteed a spot to heaven? I believe in this view it gives more motivation to try and do right since you're place by him isn't assured.

As well as the concept of hell, I believe it too is to give an example. He could simply destroy us, but I don't believe we would learn from it. Even if for example we went to hell for a time before destruction it wouldn't carry the same weight as just torture. Death or the absence of existence isn't too much of a deterrent if any to some people, but the thought of constant suffering, of being placed in a position of constant pain with and having to live though it for eternity, can be.

I won't say that Allah is or isn't peaceful, for being of that magnitude I don't think I could begin to comprehend their reasoning. But I wouldn't say they're a tyrant.

Ah, but Islam is more moral. In Christianity it is less moral. It really becomes a question: Do you accept Jesus Christ as God ? Yes-your going to Heaven. No-your going to Hell to suffer forever. But I have a problem with the idea od Hell.
I'll give you one. Suppose that a person is a Psychopath. He or she has no feelings of empathy. They can order your execution and have no trouble falling asleep. But suppose one was a serial killer and does not feel guilty. He or she sees no reason why they would have to pray to Jesus for forgiveness.
By Christian doctrine, he or she is going to burn in Hell. But wait..he or she has a problem with the frontal cortex. It is damaged in a way. It is because of that that he doesn't have a normal feelings of empathy. So would God be wrong to send he or she to Hell ? That's the question I have .

Let’s back-up a little here for a second. I do not know if you are a former Catholic, but if you are, you would be aware of the three requirements for a mortal sin to occur:
A.) Gravity of the sin.
B.) Full knowledge of the sin.
C.) Full consent to the sin.

Let’s say this person allows themselves to kill someone. They have fulfilled requirements B and C. However, their frontal cortex is missing. This is a massive part of the brain required for holding onto information. If it is damaged, and the person could not possibly know the gravity of their sin. They would be less culpable than someone who is aware of the gravity of the sin, and would not be judged as harshly.

[The Glorious Third Reign of Templedom]

I meant what does the church say about the eucharist having healing properties?

The Eucharist (also called Blessed Sacrament), is a major topic in theology! One which I'm not at all confident of answering adequately. Based on what I do know for certain:

• The Church teaches that the Eucharist really transforms into the flesh and blood of Christ, according to Matthew 26:26-28, Mark 14:22-24, Luke 22:19-20; known as the dogma of Transubstantiation
• The miracle of healing is conferred through anointing of the sick, another one of the seven sacraments* of the Church. It is performed by a priest in accordance with
  James 5:13-15:
  "13 Is any among you afflicted? let him pray. Is any merry? let him sing psalms. 14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him."
• Confession must be done before taking communion:
  1 Corinthians 11:27-29
  "27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body."

* other than Eucharist (Communion) and Anointing of the sick (Last Rites), the other five are: Baptism, Confirmation (Orthodox: Chrismation), Confession, Matrimony, Holy Orders (priestly ordination).

[Hakons]

Don’t worry. Summer is coming.

HeLlO, i CaN dIsPrOvE rElIgIoN wItH oNe QuEsTiOn.

[Benuty]

Don’t worry. Summer is coming.

HeLlO, i CaN dIsPrOvE rElIgIoN wItH oNe QuEsTiOn.

Yeah, those topics really are such a bane especially if it is a militant antitheist who sees genocide as an acceptable goal to wipe out religion nevermind the irony of those beliefs. I really want a legitimate misotheist on here one of these days so they will go on a tangent on how to "kill" the gods of humanity.

[Nioya]

Been a while since I posted here. How is everyone? And why have you not reached 500 pages yet?

We haven't had any 3rd century heretics on to speed through 50 pages.

To everyone:
How acceptable is it to express political views at Church? One member at my Church always wears a Trump hat when he volunteers for Wednesday dinners. While traveling in Massachusetts, a Presbyterian Church I passed by had a conspicuous Black Lives Matter sign on the front side of the building. Should individuals express their politics? I think we should be political when a certain course of action is obviously consistent with our theology, but these partisan examples are more questionable.

I think it’s inappropriate, at least for a church representative. Church should be something that unites, not divides us. And really a trump hat is even more inappropriate given his personal behavior.