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The Christian Discussion thread IX: Pelagius Rising.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
273
34%
Eastern Orthodox
67
8%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
6
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
53
7%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
95
12%
Methodist
29
4%
Baptist
89
11%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
52
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
18
2%
Other Christian
113
14%
 
Total votes : 795

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Tarsonis Survivors
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Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:41 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
The gospel doesn't suggest a national policy, Christ had little interest in the affairs of state. Any national policy derived from the Gospel or Christian theology at large, would largely be open to interpretation.


Not necessarily related to the refugee argument (which I largely agree with you on), but I think it's definitely possible to create a more Christian-centered state at least morally speaking.


I'd say it depends on the style of Government for starters. But then I find there's sort of that infinitely regressing question of "which Christianity?" I mean take the issue of SSM for instance: you have Christian denominations on both sides of this argument.

This is why I'm personally a supporter of the secular liberal Democracy. Religion can have influence on the state but ultimately the individual has the ultimate right to live how they please. In theory anyway.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:43 am



What.

I don't even know that much Latin and I know that's not correct.
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:46 am

Luminesa wrote:
Pasong Tirad wrote:It's not about you. It's not about whether or not they will return the kindness. That doesn't matter. They need help now. You, have the capacity to help but choose not to. Firefighters don't ask people in a burning building if they're Muslim, if they voted Liberal or if their house is insured. They just go in.

You do have to bear in mind that even the CCC tells us that we are obligated to be reasonable. We who are more fortunate have the option to take-in immigrants, and we only require them to respect the laws of the country. If an immigrant comes into the country and refuses to follow the law, or flaunts their hatred of the law in some way, we are not obligated to continue to show charity. Of course, on the flip-side, those who do respect the law, and who are here because they need shelter and they want to live a decent life, should receive as much charity as possible. But it is entirely impossible to help all people at all times. Even Francis de Sales writes about that. Do what good you can at that time.

And I'm saying many Christians out there must be doing more, if only because I feel like plenty of us (myself included), aren't doing nearly as much as we are capable of doing - or, as you and many others have said, are doing the good that we can do.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:47 am

Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Not necessarily related to the refugee argument (which I largely agree with you on), but I think it's definitely possible to create a more Christian-centered state at least morally speaking.


I'd say it depends on the style of Government for starters. But then I find there's sort of that infinitely regressing question of "which Christianity?" I mean take the issue of SSM for instance: you have Christian denominations on both sides of this argument.

This is why I'm personally a supporter of the secular liberal Democracy. Religion can have influence on the state but ultimately the individual has the ultimate right to live how they please. In theory anyway.


Well, I would say either the Catholic or Orthodox Church ideally. Most other denominations aren't consistent enough in their doctrine to provide a solid moral code that could be written into a constitution.

The problem with secular liberal democracy is that essentially anything goes so long as you can make an argument for it and get support for it. There's no solid sense of morality because it by definition distances itself from the source of morality which is the Church and God. Which is why abortion is a thing, among other things.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

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On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:06 pm

Leviticus 19:34 says to love the foreigner as the native. Does anyone here think Christ abolished this stipulation?
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:21 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:Leviticus 19:34 says to love the foreigner as the native. Does anyone here think Christ abolished this stipulation?


No, but it's not loving the foreigner if we bring them all into the country and that wrecks the economy and their state of living here (as well as everyone else's).
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 4:57 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Leviticus 19:34 says to love the foreigner as the native. Does anyone here think Christ abolished this stipulation?


No, but it's not loving the foreigner if we bring them all into the country and that wrecks the economy and their state of living here (as well as everyone else's).

Do you think natives who don't help grease the wheels of mammon should also be cast out? If not, then you love the native more than the foreigner.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:07 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Tarsonis Survivors wrote:
I'd say it depends on the style of Government for starters. But then I find there's sort of that infinitely regressing question of "which Christianity?" I mean take the issue of SSM for instance: you have Christian denominations on both sides of this argument.

This is why I'm personally a supporter of the secular liberal Democracy. Religion can have influence on the state but ultimately the individual has the ultimate right to live how they please. In theory anyway.


Well, I would say either the Catholic or Orthodox Church ideally. Most other denominations aren't consistent enough in their doctrine to provide a solid moral code that could be written into a constitution.

The problem with secular liberal democracy is that essentially anything goes so long as you can make an argument for it and get support for it. There's no solid sense of morality because it by definition distances itself from the source of morality which is the Church and God. Which is why abortion is a thing, among other things.

Historically speaking, Orthodox and Catholic states did not have constitutions. They had anointed autocrats. Constitutions came out of the struggle of the non-noble elite for power, and actually engendered secularism.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:09 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Well, I would say either the Catholic or Orthodox Church ideally. Most other denominations aren't consistent enough in their doctrine to provide a solid moral code that could be written into a constitution.

The problem with secular liberal democracy is that essentially anything goes so long as you can make an argument for it and get support for it. There's no solid sense of morality because it by definition distances itself from the source of morality which is the Church and God. Which is why abortion is a thing, among other things.

Historically speaking, Orthodox and Catholic states did not have constitutions. They had anointed autocrats. Constitutions came out of the struggle of the non-noble elite for power, and actually engendered secularism.


I realize. I'm speaking more of a theoretical form of government.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:11 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
No, but it's not loving the foreigner if we bring them all into the country and that wrecks the economy and their state of living here (as well as everyone else's).

Do you think natives who don't help grease the wheels of mammon should also be cast out? If not, then you love the native more than the foreigner.


I'm not sure what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that if we bring everyone over just for them to have a bad standard of living, it's not helping them.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:14 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Historically speaking, Orthodox and Catholic states did not have constitutions. They had anointed autocrats. Constitutions came out of the struggle of the non-noble elite for power, and actually engendered secularism.


I realize. I'm speaking more of a theoretical form of government.

It's not feasible. Orthodox reactionaries favor absolute monarchies, not theocracies. And Catholic reactionaries (if they still exist) favor absolute political power of the Pope, with monarchs answering to him.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:16 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Do you think natives who don't help grease the wheels of mammon should also be cast out? If not, then you love the native more than the foreigner.


I'm not sure what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that if we bring everyone over just for them to have a bad standard of living, it's not helping them.

It might decrease average standard of living, but theirs would still improve. Also when we're talking about refugees it's about something other than that.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:16 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I realize. I'm speaking more of a theoretical form of government.

It's not feasible. Orthodox reactionaries favor absolute monarchies, not theocracies. And Catholic reactionaries (if they still exist) favor absolute political power of the Pope, with monarchs answering to him.


Plenty of Christians I've spoken to are receptive to the idea of a Christian moral-based constitutional government. And even if most weren't, it's not an "unfeasible" idea regardless.

And besides, I'm a constitutional Monarchist so ideally a monarch would be involved in this form of government.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:18 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I'm not sure what you're saying.

What I'm saying is that if we bring everyone over just for them to have a bad standard of living, it's not helping them.

It might decrease average standard of living, but theirs would still improve. Also when we're talking about refugees it's about something other than that.


Fleeing from poverty just to end up in more poverty isn't an improvement.

And besides, there's more ways to help refugees than bringing them into your country.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:21 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:It's not feasible. Orthodox reactionaries favor absolute monarchies, not theocracies. And Catholic reactionaries (if they still exist) favor absolute political power of the Pope, with monarchs answering to him.


Plenty of Christians I've spoken to are receptive to the idea of a Christian moral-based constitutional government. And even if most weren't, it's not an "unfeasible" idea regardless.

And besides, I'm a constitutional Monarchist anyway.

Maybe, but you said Catholic and Orthodox. Absolute monarchy is suppprted by many of our saints, even into the 20th Century (and probably the 21st when canonization sets in). But a constitutional theocracy just doesn't have a precedent and you can't really distill a "sharia law" or "penal code," as such, from the Gospel.
Last edited by The Parkus Empire on Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:27 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:It might decrease average standard of living, but theirs would still improve. Also when we're talking about refugees it's about something other than that.


Fleeing from poverty just to end up in more poverty isn't an improvement.

And besides, there's more ways to help refugees than bringing them into your country.

There's living in a trailer park. Then there's living without utilities or much food.

Refugees are generally in mortal peril because of national conditions. While those can be fixed, it takes time; what do you propose during the immediate peril?
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:28 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Plenty of Christians I've spoken to are receptive to the idea of a Christian moral-based constitutional government. And even if most weren't, it's not an "unfeasible" idea regardless.

And besides, I'm a constitutional Monarchist anyway.

Maybe, but you said Catholic and Orthodox. Absolute monarchy is suppprted many of our saints, even into the 20th Century (and probably the 21st when canonization sets in). But a constitutional theocracy just doesn't have a precedent and you can't really distill a "sharia law" or "penal code," as such, from the Gospel.


I'm aware. But absolute monarchy isn't really practical, especially when you consider their purpose to be to protect their subjects and (in my theoretical government) the moral and traditional integrity of the country. You would need to put limits on their power so they don't just do whatever outside of that purpose.

That's because it would be law derived from Christian morality and virtues, as opposed to a secular flimsy social "good". And theocracy would mean that literal priests would be in charge of the government and that's not what I'm suggesting.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:29 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
Fleeing from poverty just to end up in more poverty isn't an improvement.

And besides, there's more ways to help refugees than bringing them into your country.

There's living in a trailer park. Then there's living without utilities or much food.

Refugees are generally in mortal peril because of national conditions. While those can be fixed, it takes time; what do you propose during the immediate peril?


Like I said before, setting up secure areas within the country where people can seek refuge and safety.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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The Parkus Empire
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Postby The Parkus Empire » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:33 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote:Maybe, but you said Catholic and Orthodox. Absolute monarchy is suppprted many of our saints, even into the 20th Century (and probably the 21st when canonization sets in). But a constitutional theocracy just doesn't have a precedent and you can't really distill a "sharia law" or "penal code," as such, from the Gospel.


I'm aware. But absolute monarchy isn't really practical, especially when you consider their purpose to be to protect their subjects and (in my theoretical government) the moral and traditional integrity of the country. You would need to put limits on their power so they don't just do whatever outside of that purpose.

That's because it would be law derived from Christian morality and virtues, as opposed to a secular flimsy social "good". And theocracy would mean that literal priests would be in charge of the government and that's not what I'm suggesting.
I don't trust Christian sharia
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 5:36 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I'm aware. But absolute monarchy isn't really practical, especially when you consider their purpose to be to protect their subjects and (in my theoretical government) the moral and traditional integrity of the country. You would need to put limits on their power so they don't just do whatever outside of that purpose.

That's because it would be law derived from Christian morality and virtues, as opposed to a secular flimsy social "good". And theocracy would mean that literal priests would be in charge of the government and that's not what I'm suggesting.
I don't trust Christian sharia


It's not Christian sharia.

Anyway, have fun with the Secular liberals that despise everything you stand for then.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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Nordengrund
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Postby Nordengrund » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:06 pm

I'm somewhere in the middle between secularism and promoting Christian values in government. In some ways, I think secularism is compatible with Christian values as I believe everyone should practice whatever they want as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others. While I am okay with a government promoting Christian values in areas like social justice, abortion, etc, I don't think any particular denomination should have special treatment.

I'm a low-churcher, so maybe I tend to be a little more skeptical of state churches and monarchism due to that.
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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:07 pm

Nordengrund wrote:I'm somewhere in the middle between secularism and promoting Christian values in government. In some ways, I think secularism is compatible with Christian values as I believe everyone should practice whatever they want as long as they are not infringing on the rights of others. While I am okay with a government promoting Christian values in areas like social justice, abortion, etc, I don't think any particular denomination should have special treatment.

I'm a low-churcher, so maybe I tend to be a little more skeptical of state churches and monarchism due to that.


There were plenty of Protestant monarchs. In fact, I think most of the ones that still exist are mostly Protestants. (Nordic countries, Britain, Netherlands,etc.)

In fact, the only Catholic monarchy I can think of that still exists is Spain. And there's no Orthodox monarchies anymore.

Edit: Nevermind, Belgium is also a Catholic monarchy.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. John 1:5

"What is better? To be born good, or to overcome your evil nature through great effort?" -Paarthurnax

On Feminist interpretations of God and Christianity.

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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:30 pm

The Parkus Empire wrote:
Diopolis wrote:To a much lesser extent than the other protestants at the time. The KJV reads fairly similarly to a more awkwardly poetic douay-rheims. Both are fairly good translations liberal Christians randomly demonize because of who uses them, albeit complicated by the difference in vocabulary between the seventeenth century and modern day.

They demonize the translations precisely because they are accurate. Liberal Christian translations tend to be...liberal.

They don't demonize other equally accurate translations, however. New Roman Standard Version is probably more accurate than either of those, and they don't demonize it.
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Tarsonis Survivors
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Ex-Nation

Postby Tarsonis Survivors » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:32 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote: I don't trust Christian sharia


It's not Christian sharia.

Anyway, have fun with the Secular liberals that despise everything you stand for then.


They don't despise everything I stand for, like free will. Christ was not a tyrant and Christianity is not a tyranny. If people don't wish to follow the way of God, that is their right. And in this regard Paul reminds us to not worry. Because make no mistake, God is not mocked by their rejection, they reap what they sow .
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
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Pasong Tirad
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Postby Pasong Tirad » Sun Sep 10, 2017 7:36 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
The Parkus Empire wrote: I don't trust Christian sharia


It's not Christian sharia.

Anyway, have fun with the Secular liberals that despise everything you stand for then.

I'd rather not impose my beliefs on people who aren't even Christian to begin with, though.
"If there is no friendship with them [the poor] and no sharing of the life of the poor, then there is no authentic commitment to liberation, because love exists only among equals."
- Gustavo Gutiérrez
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